Monday, February 29, 2016

Why The Masked Arab is Masked: Falsehood Makes one Bashful Does Islam Encourage Pedophilia?

(English isn't my first language so i might make grammatical mistakes)
Note (please ignore this note and read the article first before reading this not to clarify):


to clarify after receiving many private message I'm not claiming that at the age of 9 a girl is ready to be married, all what I'm stating is that there is no general consensus or Ijma' among scholars regarding the age of marriage, but we do have general consensus that its not correct to have sexual intercourse at any age even in cradle , that is my main point, as for verse 65:4 the reason why I'm using academic sources to claim that a girl can hit puberty at 8 is because the masked arab claimed that 65:4 allow sex before puberty since the context is about girls who have not yet menstruated, what i did is showing even when they are not yet menstruated they already hit puberty, which leads me to a question  (yes a question is my main argument here not the age) and that question is how do you know that 65:4 is referring to sex before puberty?

Introduction:

as I have dealt with such polemicist before, this article is a direct critique to one of the most growing polemicist self-proclaimed ex-muslim channels, this channel as I stated before despite claiming to be honest and though provoking has made many blunders and errors demonstrated in my last article (Why the Masked Arab is Masked: Falsehood Makes one Bashful Does the Sun Sit in a Murky Water) where I have systematically demonstrated his lack of integrity and conducting proper research, his lack of honesty and lack of basic hadith science, later on I was notified by one of his fans of a Facebook post he made in reply to criticism of the Hadith,  it seems possible that he took notice of my skeptics to the hadith he cited, no other muslim in his channel claimed that the hadith is only Sahih in Sanad and not matin than me, which drives me to think that this Facebook post was directed at me, nevertheless I took down and deconstructed his counter response, and it only took me 2 minutes to do so, which is yet another demonstration of his lack of critical observation and critical analysis, with this simple instruction let us proceed
Take Note however I will ignore all of his condescending and irrational and irrelevant insults and mockery, I might make some comments there and there about some rhetorical insults and statements he made but it won't make it my focused point
There are two reasons in his video in which I decided to tackle this issue shall be demonstrated later on

What needs to be meet and the Theory of pedophilia:

Before continuing on my rapid critique of the maksed arab I would like to point out a criteria that we need to put forth as to what is pedophilia and what defines pedophilia, and what is islam stance on sexual behavior to a minor, to understand pedophilia we need a broad academic definition
According to Michael C. Seto a Canadian forensic psychologist, sexologist, and author. He is Director of Forensic Rehabilitation Research at the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group, where he says his research focuses on pedophilia, sexual offenses committed against children, child pornography, risk assessment, offenders with mental disorders, psychopathy, and program evaluation[1]

In his introduction to his academic definition he make a striking comment “Pedophilia is typically defined as sexual attraction to prepubescent children, reflected in a person's sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, sexual arousal, or behavior regarding children (American Psychiatric Association, 2000; World Health Organization, 1997). There are two key aspects to emphasize in this definition: first, the sexual interest in children is persistent, and second, the children of interest are prepubescent and thus show few or no signs of secondary sexual development. This means that someone who has expressed a sexual interest in children or who has engaged in sexual behavior involving a child is not necessarily a pedophile. It also means that individuals who are attracted to sexually maturing children or sexually mature adolescents, even if they are below the legally defined age of consent, are unlikely to be pedophiles”  [2]

This is a striking example from academia
Furthermore he state the following:
Pedophilia is defined as a sexual interest in prepubescent children. It is empirically linked with sexual offending against children: Child pornography offenders and sex offenders with child victims are more likely to be pedophiles based on self-report or objective measures of sexual interests. At the same time, some pedophiles have not had any known sexual contact with children, and perhaps half of sex offenders against children would not meet diagnostic criteria for pedophilia. Pedophilia can be diagnosed using a variety of methods and is an important factor to consider in the assessment of sex offenders because pedophilic offenders are more likely to sexually reoffend and require different interventions. There is no evidence to suggest that pedophilia can be changed. Instead, interventions are designed to increase voluntary control over sexual arousal, reduce sex drive, or teach self-management skills to individuals who are motivated to avoid acting upon their sexual interests”[3]

According to Richard Green another Sexologist, psychiatrist, lawyer, and author specializing in homosexuality and transsexualism, specifically gender identity disorder in children. Green is the founding editor of the Archives of Sexual Behavior (1971), and served as Editor until 2001. He is also the founding president of the International Academy of Sex Research (1975),[4] which made the Archives its official publication.[5] [6] He served on the American Psychiatric Association DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders

He state the following in his article Is Pedophilia a mental disorder? :
” In the DSM-IV (American Psychiatric Association, 2000), Puberty is the boundary for Pedophilia, the younger the person is to be prepubetal. But, the designation of Puberty as the bright line age boundary for erotic attraction to be a mental illness is arbitrary, it does not consider the mental development of the child, Further, Puberty Varies between individual and may be changing over generations. And, for sexual proscription, it is not the marker necessarily grounded historically cross-culturally[7]

He continues on after giving an example of homosexual relations with very young boys he makes another explicit statement
“These Cross-Cultural Examples are not cited to argue for similar practices in Los Angeles or London. But are we to conclude that all the adults engaged in these practices were mentally ill? If arguably they were not pedophiles but following cultural or religious tradition, why is frequent sex with a child not a mental illness under those circumstances?
For Skeptics of relevance of these cited exotic examples, for three centuries the age of consent in England was 10. This was Not the same loin cloth clad tribe living on side of a volcano, but the nation for six centuries was already graduating students from Oxford and Cambridge, Further, the time when age of consent was 10 was not in a period contemporaneous with Cromagnon Man, But continued to within 38 years of World War I, The Impetus to Raise the age of sexual consent in England from 10 years was Fueled not by an outrage over pedophilia perse, but concerns over child prostitution, Changes in employment law during the nineteenth century were protecting children from long hours of factory labor, leaving them more accessible for sexual service as the only means of support, Child prostitution was rampant (Bullough 1990). Were all customers pedophiles? Were they all mentally ill?[8]

Of course on the exact same article Professor Green cites also Nonhumans adult-infant relations
Not only that, as stated above the age of 10 was the consentioal age of marriage or rather sex in England prior to World War I, this further prove that early age marriage is by far determent by cultural and social environment
Moreover another academic has loudly proclaimed that it’s not easy to define a pedophile purely from looking at their sexual attraction or fantasies
William O'Donohue is an American psychologist who focuses on human sexuality, especially child sexual abuse. In 2009 O'Donohue was appointed as advisor to the DSM-V Work Group on Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association.[9]

He start in the introduction of his article in Problems with the DSM-IV Diagnosis of Pedophilia and state the following:
“Any lexical or any formalized definition of pedophilia (from Greek, “child lover”) must capture its essential features: a sexual interest in children, Behavioral indices or manifestations of this sexual interest can include sexual arousal to children, sexual fantasies involving children, and acts such as buying child pornography or touching a child in sexual way, sexual interest is notoriously difficult to measure accurately because some of it’s key manifestations, such as fantasies, sensations of attraction, and urges, are covert[10]
These are all academic references and what we conclude from them is the following:
1.      Pedophilia can’t be easily defined by having sexual relations to a prepubescent child
2.      Historical and Cultural aspects and religious influence can effect adult decision in choosing a child as their mate, subsequently Muhammad followed the normal tradition of early age marriage in Arabia subsequently since he is following normal Arabian tradition he can’t be defined as a pedophile
3.      Early age Marriage is NOT categories under pedophilia, so marriage of Muhammad to Aisha should not be considered as a pedophilic act
4.      Early age marriage even before child birth in the womb is not also an act of pedophilia since marriage is a social contract and not physical act
5.      Muhammad marriage was not controversial to his time and was quite normal to his tradition, this is evident by the fact of the following Quote: “It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age”[11]
6.      Therefore by premise 2 Muhammad can’t be considered pedophile Due the the fact that he was simply following his tradition.
This is further complemented by the following Quote:
“The other main allegations of moral defect in Muhammad are that he was treacherous and lustful . . . Sufficient has been said above about the interpretation of these events to show that the case against Muhammad is much weaker than is sometimes thought. The discussions of these allegations, however, raises a fundamental question. How are we to judge Muhammad?  By the standards of his own time and country?  Or by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today?  When the sources are closely scrutinized, it is clear that those of Muhammad's actions which are disapproved by the modern West were not the object of the moral criticism of his contemporaries. They criticized some of his acts, but their motives were superstitious prejudice or fear of the consequences.  If they criticized the events at Nakhlah, it was because they feared some punishment from the offended pagan gods or the worldly vengeance of the Meccans.  If they were amazed at the mass execution of the Jews of the clan of Qurayzah, it was at the number and danger of the blood-feuds incurred.  The marriage with Zaynab seemed incestuous, but this conception of incest was bound up with old practices belonging to a lower, communalistic level of familial institutions where a child's paternity was not definitely known; and this lower level was in process being eliminated by Islam . . . From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained.  His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time.  In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'.”[12]
What I have stated above all must be considered the measurement in criticizing the masked arab video, each claim must adhear to the above terms, any claim of early marriage being considered pedophilic will be dismissed as empirically false as we demonstrated from several academic sources
Of course under such academic research if we provide academic sources and references as to the fact that young age marriage was common practice in Arabia, then we can safely conclude that Muhammad merely was practicing his day and age tradition as yearly age marriage is considered normal in 7th century Arabia even prior to islam, if we can conclude such premise then by default from the above academic definitions of pedophilia including professor green statement “But are we to conclude that all the adults engaged in these practices were mentally ill? If arguably they were not pedophiles but following cultural or religious tradition, why is frequent sex with a child not a mental illness under those circumstances?”
And “The Impetus to Raise the age of sexual consent in England from 10 years was Fueled not by an outrage over pedophilia perse, but concerns over child prostitution, Changes in employment law during the nineteenth century were protecting children from long hours of factory labor, leaving them more accessible for sexual service as the only means of support, Child prostitution was rampant (Bullough 1990). Were all customers pedophiles? Were they all mentally ill?”
Clearly shows that if you follow your tradition simply as an excuse for early age marriage then you are not a pedophile, if we can associate Muhammad with the normal aspect of such tradition, then Muhammad scientifically and logically is considered impossible to be a pedophile
I shall now start deconstruction the masked arab video

Marriage Is Not Considered Part of sex or pedophilia:

Later on in this article I’ll be dealing extensively with the masked arab usage of marriage in Islam, as he seems to claim that Marriage falls under the category of pedophilia, even though all academic experts disagree with such assertion, Marriage is nothing but a social contract, it doesn’t matter what age you are marrying to this doesn’t fall under the category of pedophilia, but don’t take my word for it, take the word of Aisha herself, being quoted by an orientalist:
“Aisha Says, Marriage is nothing but bondage, so a man should consider who receives his Darling [Karima] as his bondservant”[13]

Issue#1(irrelevant mockery):

@00:06 second of his video, the masked arab start by mocking and insulting skeptical Muslims such as myself as suffering cognitive dissonance, this is an unpragmatic start to what will be a horribly researched topic we have already started with the video and not a single point was made

Issue#2(yet another irrational rhetorical mockery but with a citation of a hadith):

@01:37
The masked arab start with an imaginary conversation between him and what he call “Mr. apologitc” he start directly with an ad homienm even to an imaginary character that he created purely to arouse the emotions of his fans
What is funny?
@02:03 his imaginary character start with the claim that there are hadiths that she was actually older, this apologetic claim is very familiar to me, however what makes it even striking is that the masked arab purposely strawmanned even such weak apologitc, those who argue that she was actually older right about probably the age of 19 argue such from examining her family members age including her sister, and accommodate the years and calculating it to propose the claim that the hadiths made a calculation error, NO apologetics who even argue that she was older claim that there are hadiths that make such assumption, these apologitc simply calculate her age based on her family age, that is simply all, so even he purposely made his imaginary character apologetic make a false assumption to downfall and misrepresent apologetics views
@2:25 of his video he comes forth with another claim from his imaginary character where his imaginary character supposedly claims that the sahih hadiths are unauthentic because of a narrator in the chain of narration goes by the name of Hisham Ibn ‘Urwa, of course this claim is familiar to me again but we will not tackle it
The masked arab reply to his imaginary character by saying that Bukhari who dedicated his entire life in recording carefully all authentic hadith let this hadith slip by, this is of course what is called appeal to authority fallacy, just because it was Bukhari who complied these hadiths doesn’t make them authentic, the masked arab has committed by himself a logical fallacy with no prior knowledge
Scholars don’t even consider Bukhari Infallable, here is an academic source comment on Bukhari Regarding Aisha marriage
“I do not think the Bukhari account of Aishah’s marital history is implausible, given later legal discussions of menarche and majority, nor do I view it as infallible simply because Bukhari includes it.”[14]


However, as the masked arab cites a hadith where he claims that it doesn’t contain Hisham Ibn ‘Urwa yet cites the marriage of Aisha, what makes it so laughable is that the very image that he displayed shows clearly ‘Urwa being part of the narration




as you can see, on the yellow rectangle is ‘urwa the very man that the masked arab’s imaginary character criticized, yet the masked arab showed this image claiming that this is another narration where Hisham Ibn ‘Urwa is not mention, Yet Clearly any Arab who paid attention will have seen this error, although the second one he cited doesn’t contain Hisham his blatant error in the first one should not be ignored, however I digress, since this conversation between him and his imaginary character doesn’t impact our argument let us proceed

in his next conversation with his character he provide a hadith where it claim aisha plays with dolls, from that hadith the masked arab claims aisha was not mature simply for playing with dolls, there are two problems here, First his out most ignorance in female anatomy and the fact that he doesn’t know playing with dolls is simply a female aspect, just as much as playing violent video games is male tendencies, neither any of them impact the maturity of the gender, shall we condemn all members of IGN and Gamespot channels as a bunch of little children for playing games?

An academic Dr. A. F. Robertson an academic has written an extensive book on how dolls business has grown and categories different types of dolls made though out history, he makes the following remark on the back of his book in conclusion

“Since the 1980s there has been a growing billion dollar business producing porcelain collectible dolls. Advertised in Sunday newspapers and mailbox fliers, even Marie Osmond, an avid collector herself, is now promoting her own line of dolls on the Home Shopping Network and sales are soaring. With average price tags of $100 -- and $500 or more for a handcrafted or limited edition doll -- these dolls strike a chord in the hearts of middle-aged and older women, their core buyers, some of whom create "nurseries" devoted to collections that number in the hundreds.”[15]

My question now how these Middle Aged women and older women can keeps dolls? How can the masked arab logic stands it’s merits to empirical and academic grounds? One question now I would like to ask, if he has a sister that keeps dolls and teddy bears, does he consider her a child?
However @3:26 of his video he said “because she was yet to reach puberty” he was quoting the hadith in question, however the problem is at No point in the Arabic original source do we find a single statement from the very narration claiming that she is yet to reach puberty this claim is not part of the original hadith but rather the addition of the commentators, this is a deliberate dishonest tactic
During his video he state the following “given that adults were forbidden to adults since they resemble idols” the masked arab cited no sources no reference for such claim

This is the end of my critique of his childish conversation with this imaginary character he made
Now we shall proceed to the real video

Issue#3:

@4:13 of his video he finally brings the Quranic narrative
He cites two verses
Quran 33:49 and Quran 2:228
Quran 33:49:
“O You who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release.”

Quran 2:228:
“Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.”
@5:33 we finally start into his video and the verse he cited was predictable, however I will not focus on the Tafsirs simply because they discuss why the verse was revealed and to home it’s addressing, the masked arab is shocking correct here, the verse Does address females who are didn’t menstruated either because they are pregnant or old or too young

I will focus primarily on the too young part, as the tafsirs he cited including Tanwir Al-miqbas and Tafsir Al-Jalalain doesn’t address the flexibility and the possibility of the second term type mentioned in this verse namely those who are too young, however he state that Al-Tabari claims that this is not talking about those who reached their late teens and not yet menstruated, however he cited no sources no references to such claim, even if such narration exist it will not impact what I hold next for the masked arab, now I shall start critically look into science take on the issues, my question goes as follows

When does the First Menstrual cycle acquire? Do girls who already reached puberty get their first menstrual cycle after them hitting puberty?
The answer is Yes, these Questions destroys the argument that the verse allows for sex with prepubescent girls
The following are all the academic sources

According to WebMD the largest medical online consulting website
“Your first menstrual period is called menarche (say "MEN-ar-kee"). It usually starts sometime between ages 11 and 14. But it can happen as early as age 9 or as late as 15. If you are a teenage girl, see your doctor if you have not started having periods by age 15. Menarche is a sign you are growing up and becoming a woman. Along with starting your period, your body is changing. You've begun to develop breasts, pubic hair, and underarm hair. And your hips have begun to widen. Menarche also means that if you have sex, you can get pregnant. You can even get pregnant in the month before your first period starts.”[16]
It’s important to take note when does it acquire
The first Menstrual Cycle in Girls is known as Menarche, it usually happen like 2 years after reaching puberty right after Thelarche, which is the secondary onset when girls first start developing breast on the very start of puberty
The University of Chicago puts it as forth
1.      Puberty is the developmental stage during which secondary sexual characteristics appear.
§  Precocious puberty is the onset of puberty at an abnormally early age; usually before the age of 8 in girls and 9 in boys. This number may be lower for African American or Hispanic patients.
2.      Thelarche is the onset of female breast development.
3.      Pubarche is the appearance of sexual hair.
4.      Adrenarche is the onset of androgen-dependent body changes such as growth of axillary and pubic hair, body odor, and acne.
5.      Menarche is the onset of menstruation.[17]
Normal Puberty

1.      Normal puberty begins between ages 8-12 years in girls and 9-14 years in boys.
§  Tanner stage 2 breast development in girls
§  Tanner stage 2 testicular enlargement in boys
2.      From a physiologic standpoint, this results when pulsatile secretion of GnRH begins and the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis is activated.
3.      Criteria for defining the stages of puberty, proposed by Marshall and Tanner in 1969 and 1970, remain the standard of practice.[18]
So as we can see Menarche is the Latest stage in puberty and acquire over 3 years[19]

Further more
“Menarche usually occurs about 2-3 years after the start of breast development Menarche usually occurs about 2-3 years after the start of breast development (thelarche). In one British cohort study the average age at menarche was 12.9 years and the average duration of puberty was 2.7 years”[20]

Further more
Girls usually start to go through puberty between the ages of 8 and 13. Their bodies and minds change in many ways. Hormones kick off changes like growth and breast development. About 2 to 2½ years after a girl's breasts begin to develop, she usually gets her first menstrual period.”
According to the American congress of obstetricians and Gynecologists
“Menarche typically occurs within 2–3 years after thelarche (breast budding), at Tanner stage IV breast development, and is rare before Tanner stage III development”[21]

So it should be by now abundantly clear that Menarche is the typically the last stage of puberty and acquire typically after the start of puberty up to 3 years
In conclusion the age of 8 and 9 are the regular average age of puberty according to countless academic sources, This is a Scientific fact that even the masked arab was either oblivious to or deliberately ignored since it refute his argument, as for the verse by now
Since the verse typically talks about females who didn’t get the menstruation cycle because they are too young, I would like to ask for now, in light of the above scientific facts, how do you know that this verse is referring to sex with girls who even didn’t start puberty?
But I shall save that to one dishonest error he made where he might bring up in reply to this question let us proceed right at @7:44 he shows a text in the bottom saying “conclusion: Quran 65:4 Clearly Allows Marriage before Child Reach Puberty”
This is an arbitrary conclusion again in light of the above scientific facts, how do you know this verse is referring to children before the age of puberty?

The masked arab later on cite verse 4:6 as an attempt to reply to possible apologitcs who will be skeptical in his unethical conclusions, however I will ignore this part all together purely since it’s not my argument nor did I propose such verse
@9:50 he cites an Islamic Ruling on Fiquh that state “Al-Asil Fi Al-Ashia Al-Ibaha” means everything is acceptable unless it’s forbidden
@ 10:20 he state “if any muslim apologist want to claim that marrying a girl who has yet to reach puberty is forbidden you need to provide evidence and frankly you will be contradicting the qur’anic message in chapter 65 verse 4” although I’m not the one claiming such apologtics as I demonstrated in this article, all I did is pointing out the nonsense that you are claiming Islam allows pedophilia or otherwise sex with prepubescent girls
However as I demonstrated the burden of proof is on the masked arab to prove that 65:4 is speaking of Girls who have not yet even started puberty, as I demonstrated menarche onset start usually 3 years after reaching puberty, and since as we saw the prophet consummated the marriage at the age of 9, he didn’t have sex with a minor who have not reach the age of puberty, and as I demonstrated in the introduction of my article using nothing but non muslim sources, Muhammad is scientifically and logically impossible to be a pedophile, please read the introduction on the Header (what needs to be meat)

However I can provide evidence that marriage with girls who have not yet reached puberty in Islam or sex with them should be forbidden, by using similar Islamic ruling, this ruling state لأ ضرر و لا ضرار means (there shall be no harm done and there shall be no harm allowed) or (There is no injury nor return of injury) it’s found in Muwatta Malik Book 36, Hadith 31

The implication of this Ruling is that, anything that Causes Harm should not be allowed, that is why smoking cigarettes were considered haram in some Islamic states regarding this ruling, no why I’m I stating it? Simply because having sex with prepubescent girls cause physical and mental harm, and by using such Ruling we can easily forbid sex with children before they reach puberty
However interestingly enough Islamic scholars has pointed out that the Ruling provided by the masked arab is not General, and limited
According to IslamQ&A
ومعنى هذه القاعدة : أن كل ما على الأرض من منافع ، وما استخلصه الإنسان منها : فالانتفاع به مباح ، ما لم يقم دليل على تحريمه .”
Translate into: and the meaning of this rule: anything on earth from benefits and what man has extracted then benefiting from it is allowed until there is an evidence to forbid it[22]
Accordingly Al-Qurtobi said in his Tafsir
“(استدل من قال إن أصل الأشياء التي ينتفع بها الإباحة بهذه الآية وما كان مثلها حتى يقوم الدليل على الحظر. وعضدوا هذا بأن قالوا: إن المآكل الشهية خلقت مع إمكان ألا تخلق فلم تخلق عبثا)”[23]
Translate into: in use of the ruling of everything is permissible unless it’s forbidden in this verse and similar to it until there is evidence to forbid it, and what they said repeatedly on it: the delicious food was created with order and not chaos, then there has to be benefits from it

Issue#4:

This here is one of if not the biggest issue I have with his video, the masked arab @10:54 of  his video cites Fatih Al-Bari Fi Sharih Sahih Bukhari Vol.11 Page.25
And here is what he said “Muslim schools of Jurisprudence Unanimously allow the marriage of young girls, even if they were still babies in cradle, but intercourse cannot occur until the girl can withstand penetration”
I want you to focus on this part “until the girl can withstand penetration” , this is my biggest issue, this part needs to be addressed,




the masked arab has deliberately made a dishonest misstranslation of a word to fit his propaganda
The Word Tasluh on this Quotation doesn’t mean withstand but rather means when she is ready or available
Let us examine what the word tasluh means in Arabic using Lane Lexicon[24]



As we can see the most Authentic Arabic-English dictionary puts the word as means regarding something to be good, or not corrupt, this meaning will not make sense if the word really means withstand penetration, the more accurate translation will be “until she is ready or good for penetration” I.e when she reach puberty
This is an unbelievable dishonest Tactic from the masked arab, this was one of the first obvious errors I spotted as I watched his video

Issue#5:

What the masked arab do next is rather and shockingly another dishonest translation in order to justify a claim that islam allow rape of children
@12:10 of his video the Masked arab cites Sharih Sahih Muslim by Imam Al-Nawawi at vol.3 page.577
His main focus is the following text
وأما وقت زفاف الصغيرة المزوجة والدخول بها : فإن اتفق الزوج والولي على شيء لا ضرر فيه على الصغيرة : عُمل به ، وإن اختلفا : فقال أحمد وأبو عبيد : تجبر على ذلك بنت تسع سنين دون غيرها ، وقال مالك والشافعي وأبو حنيفة : حدُّ ذلك أن تطيق الجماع ، ويختلف ذلك باختلافهن ، ولا يضبط بسنٍّ ، وهذا هو الصحيح ، وليس في حديث عائشة تحديد ولا المنع من ذلك فيمن أطاقته قبل تسع ولا الإذن فيمن لم تطقه وقد بلغت تسعا ، قال الداودي : وكانت عائشة قد شبَّت شباباً حسناً رضى الله عنها .”
He translate it as follows “as for the time a young married girl goes to her husband for sex. It is permissible at any time given there is no harm to the girl and both the husband and the girl’s guardian approve”
His commentary is as follows “the man can have sex with her regardless of age”
I want to ask him a question now, where does Imam Nawawi claim that he can have sex with her regardless of her age? Let us now deconstruct and I’ll give you my initial honest translation, but you don’t have to take my word for it as I will cite a will known Islamic scholar who further explain it clearly and you can easily use google translator to translate what he says
The first error in translation goes as follows
وأما وقت زفاف الصغيرة المزوجة والدخول بها : فإن اتفق الزوج والولي على شيء لا ضرر فيه على الصغيرة
Above the narration uses the word “Zafaf” which means the wedding Not sex, that can also be easily looked at in google translator, at no point does the narration cited by the masked arab claims no minimum age for sex
this is directly referring to the time of wedding, what Imam Nawawi says in his sharih by quoting ahem and ‘Ubaid is that this should be at minimum for the age of 9 Maliki, Shafi’I an Hanafi says the limit is when she is ready for penetration i.e Puberty
but as I said, don’t take my word for it, take the word of one of the most famous scholars in Saudi arabai, Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajid, the owner of IslamQ&A website and he state the following regarding the above explanation

ولا يلزم من تزوج الصغيرة جواز وطئها ، بل لا توطأ إلا إن صارت مؤهلة لذلك ؛ ولذلك تأخر دخول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم على عائشة رضي الله عنها .

قال النووي :

وأما وقت زفاف الصغيرة المزوجة والدخول بها : فإن اتفق الزوج والولي على شيء لا ضرر فيه على الصغيرة : عُمل به ، وإن اختلفا : فقال أحمد وأبو عبيد : تجبر على ذلك بنت تسع سنين دون غيرها ، وقال مالك والشافعي وأبو حنيفة : حدُّ ذلك أن تطيق الجماع ، ويختلف ذلك باختلافهن ، ولا يضبط بسنٍّ ، وهذا هو الصحيح ، وليس في حديث عائشة تحديد ولا المنع من ذلك فيمن أطاقته قبل تسع ولا الإذن فيمن لم تطقه وقد بلغت تسعا ، قال الداودي : وكانت عائشة قد شبَّت شباباً حسناً رضى الله عنها .

Translate: and it’s not acceptable for those who married a small one to have sexual intercourse, but only when she is ready physically, and for that the prophet was late in his consummation for Aisha
He then later on cites the very narration the masked arab brought

this is actually getting embarrassing, because if you actually focus closely this scholar is citing the exact same narration used by the masked arab, yet the scholar clearly says that it's not acceptable to engage in sexual intercourse with a minor unless she is physically fit for it

So as we can see the above scholar claims that you can’t have sexual intercourse with children unless they are ready, the word in question here that this scholar used is Muahala
Which means ready or available for such act, some might put it as puberty
However here is the interesting part, in the Very narration brought forth by the masked arab and he deliberately never mentioned is the fact that according to Al-Nawawi, he claims that according Safi’I and his companions it’s more preferable to wait until she is mentally capable of providing an opinion regarding marriage and give her consent for it so she will not marry someone that she will hate in the future
واعلم أن الشافعي وأصحابه قالوا : يستحب أن لا يزوِّج الأب والجد البكر حتى تبلغ ويستأذنها لئلا يوقعها في أسر الزوج وهي كارهة ، وهذا الذي قالوه لا يخالف حديث عائشة ؛ لأن مرادهم أنه لا يزوجها قبل البلوغ إذا لم تكن مصلحة ظاهرة يخاف فوتها بالتأخير كحديث عائشة ، فيستحب تحصيل ذلك الزوج لأن الأب مأمور بمصلحة ولده فلا يفوتها ، والله أعلم .”
Translate: it’s preferable not for the father and the grandfather to marry the young virgin until she reach puberty and can be consulted for her consent so she will not fall under an undesirable marriage, and that is what they said doesn’t come into contradiction in regard to Aisha hadith, because the purpose of it not to marry her before reaching puberty unless there is a possible benefit then there should be a delay like the hadith of what happened to Aisha, then it’s preferable for that husband because the father is obligated to provide the better conditions for his child, and god knows best

I will cite later on the source for the above narration

So as we can see from the above citation that the masked arab deliberately left out, scholars agree that it’s much preferable to marry her when she can consent, i.e mentally educated regarding marriage, and if they marry her at such young age that is only if there is something that benefits her, this is Not an indication to allow the husband to satisfy his sexual lost, but rather it’s permissible to marry her at such young age if there is something that can benefit her from such marriage, this explanation just explained child marriage in islam

Issue#6:

@12:49 of his video he state the following” the only time for a girl to give her opinion as if she is married after she hit puberty” the masked arab cited no sources no reference but he is right here partly right,  as this time of a girl is name  this type of girls that he mentioned in his video is called Thaib ثَيِّبًا
According to Sahih Bukhari
“Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya: that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Messenger () and he declared that marriage invalid.”[25]
However what he lied about is the fact that a virgin or known in arabic as  بِكْرِ can still provide her opinion regarding Marriage

“Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
A virgin came to the Prophet () and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet () allowed her to exercise her choice”[26]
“Ibn ‘Abbas reported the Apostle of Allaah() as saying “A woman without a husband has more right to her person than her guardian and a virgin’s permission must be asked, her permission being her silence. These are the words of Al Qa’nabi.”[27]


“Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet () said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger ()! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission).”[28]

Issue#7:

@13:16 of his video, the masked arab cites Ibn Al-‘Abidin in his Hashia Rad Al-Mohtar Volume.5 page.283
تطيق الوطء أي منه أو من غيره كما يفيد كلام الفتح وأشار إلى ما في الزيلعي من تصحيح عدم تقديره بالسن ، فإن السمينة الضخمة تحتمل الجماع ولو صغيرة السن

Here the masked arab shockingly enough have provided an actual (somewhat) accurate translation

This is how he translated it “Withstanding penetration means being able to withstand it from a penis or another object in breaking the hymen. This cannot be determined by minimum age, for example, fat girls can withstand intercourse even if they were very young
Interestingly enough he didn’t include الزيلعي which is the name of the scholar who is making the following statement, this shows that the author of the book is simply quoting الزيلعي but let us see what he explained in prior volume using the very source the masked arab used

However things need to be called out for it’s context in the VERY book used by the masked arab Ibn Al-‘Abidin state the following
قد صرحوا عندنا بأن الزوجة إذا كانت صغيرة لا تطيق الوطئ لا تسلم إلى الزوج حتى تطيقه ، والصحيح أنه غير مقدر بالسن ، بل يفوض إلى القاضي بالنظر إليها من سمن أو هزال ، وقدمنا عن التاتر خانية أن البالغة إذا كانت لا تحتمل لا يؤمر بدفعها إلى الزوج أيضاً ، فقوله : لا تحتمل يشمل ما لو كان لضعفها أو هزالها أو لكبر آلته ، وفي الأشباه من أحكام غيبوبة الحشفة فيما يحرم على الزوج وطئ زوجته مع بقاء النكاح ، قال : وفيما إذا كانت لا تحتمله لصغر أو مرض أو سمنة اه‍ ، وربما يفهم من سمنه عظم آلته ، وحرر الشرنبلالي في شرحه على الوهبانية أنه لو جامع زوجته فماتت أو صارت مفضاة ، فإن كانت صغير أو مكرهة أولاً تطيق تلزمه الدية إتفاقاً.فعلم من هذا كله أنه لا يحل له وطؤها بما يؤدي إلى إضرارها
Translate into: and scholars have declared that the wife if she was young and can’t endure penetration, she shouldn’t be handled to the husband, until she is physically able to endure it, and what is authentic from it is that no age is detriment, but the judge should decide by looking at her from body either being fat or weak, and we brought form the myotonic of the girl if she reached puberty if she can’t endure it then she is not to be handled in marriage too, and he said: by not enduring means if she is weak(too young) or physically ill, or his penis being strong, and what is similar of some rulings is that it’s haram for a husband to have sexual intercourse while still married to her, said: and that is included if she can’t endure it due to her small age or illness or fatness, and might be understood from his fatness probably the size of his penis, and as declared by Al-Sharnabali in his explanation on Al-Wahbania if he had sexual intercourse with his wife then she died if she was too young or didn’t desire it or can’t endure it then from all that it should be understood that he can’t have sexual intercourse with her because that will physically Damage her[29]

So as we can see the girl according to classical Islamic exegesis must be tested before marriage, if she can’t endure it duo to sickness, fatness, or age, to the level that it might cause her Damage then she is NOT to be handled to the husband, all of that is explained in the very book cited by the masked arab himself, the citation brought forth by the masked arab simply put it forth that if she can endure it physically and if it doesn’t pose any form of physical damage to her then it’s allowed,
This is all performed as medical test before even marriage can be established or finished, this doesn’t acquire during marriage as displayed above

However as of now I shall explore what the major Sunni schools of thought declared on sex with children:

Source#1

According to Al-Siwasi Al-Hanafi, one of the shieks of the scholar Muhammad Ibn Salim Al-Hanafi the 8th garnd muftis of Al-Azhar university state in his book Sahrih Fatih Al-Qadir he interestingly put forth a minimum age for sex
وله : لا يستمتع بها ، أي لا توطأ وصرح في الذخيرة بأن المراد من الإستمتاع الوطء وبه قيد الحاكم قال : لا نفقة للصغيرة التي لا تجامع فلا نفقة لها إلى أن تصير إلى حالة تحتمل الوطء سواء كانت في بيت الزوج أو الأب وإختلف فيها ، فقيل : أقلها سبع سنين ، وقال العتابي : إختيار مشايخنا تسع سنين ، والحق عدم التقدير فإن إحتماله يختلف بإختلاف البنية.”[30]
Translate into: and to him she should not have pleasure from sexual intercourse with her, and it was mentioned in Al-Thakhira that pleasure is the purpose of sexual intercourse and in it the the judgment of the Hakim he said: it’s not allowed for the young that cannot have sexual intercourse, until she reach the stage of being able to endure it wither she is in the house of her husband or the father and there was a disagreement regarding that, it was said : she should be at least seven years old, and Al-‘Atabi said: our scholars chooses nine years old, but it’s corrected not to minimize it because it’s different from one girl to another”

I.e what he is saying is that biologically each girl has her own minimum age of being able physically to endure sexual intercourse, this doesn’t mean that you can have sex with her even directly after birth, but as explained earlier she need to be tested to detriment when she is ready

Source#2

Interestingly enough according to Ahmad b. Abi Sahl Abu Bakr al-Sarakhsi in his book Al-Mabsut
قال : وبلغنا ، عن رسول الله (ص) : إنه تزوج عائشة (ر) وهي صغيرة بنت ستة سنين وبنى بها وهي بنت تسع سنين ، وكانت عنده تسعاً ففى الحديث دليل على جواز نكاح الصغير والصغيرة بتزويج الآباء ، بخلاف ما يقوله إبن شبرمة وأبوبكر الأصم رحمهم الله تعالى : إنه لا يزوج الصغير والصغيرة حتى يبلغا.”[31]
Translate into: he said: we reached a word about the Prophet : he married Aisha when she is young at the age of six and consummated the marriage at the age of nine years, and she remained with him for nine years, so in the hadith evidence to allow marriage with young ones of male and female from fathers, however there is a disagreement from ibn shibrma and abu bakir Al-Asim may god have mercy on their sols they said : a young one should not be married until she is old enough

Shockingly enough what we have here seems to be a contradiction within Islamic tradition

Source#3

This contradiction is further more confirmed by Ibn Najim Al-Masri in his book Al-Bahir Al-Raiq
وإختلفوا في وقت الدخول بالصغيرة ، فقيل لا يدخل بها ما لم تبلغ ، وقيل يدخل بها إذا بلغت تسع سنين ، وقيل إن كانت سمينة جسيمة تطيق الجماع يدخل بها وإلاّ فلا.”[32]
Translate into: and scholars disagreed in the time of consummation of marriage with a young one, some said that he can’t have sexual intercourse until she is matured, some said until she is nine years of age, some said if she was fat and can endure it then he can, if not he can’t be allowed

So as we can see, the masked arab is wrong when he said that scholar agree by ijma’ consensus that a man can have sex with a girl as long as she can take it, this furthermore shows his lack of conducting appropriate research and dishonesty
But I would like to leave the masked arab with this question
Why did you said @13:30 of your video claiming that the five major schools of sharia on Islam are unanimous on no minimum age of marriage and sex when there is clear contradictions and disagreement on them? Why did you lied there?

Source#4

According to IslamWeb one of the largest if not the largest Arabic online gathering opinion of scholars have stated the following
وأما الصغيرة التي لم تبلغ، فالسؤال في حقها عن مسألتين:
ـ الأولى: العقد عليها.
ـ والثانية: الاستمتاع بها، بالوطء أو بما دون الوطء.
Translate into: and regarding the young who who didn’t reach adulthood then the question on her right contain the following issues:
First one: her marriage
Second one: sexual pleasure including sexual intercourse or anything else

Source#5

We have already addressed the issue of marriage so let us jump into their opinion regarding the second issue of sexual pleasure
“  قال النووي: اعلم أن الشافعي وأصحابه قالوا: يستحب أن لا يزوج الأب والجد البكر حتى تبلغ، ويستأذنها لئلا يوقعها في أسر الزوج وهي كارهة. وهذا الذي قالوه لا يخالف حديث عائشة؛ لأن مرادهم أنه لا يزوجها قبل البلوغ إذا لم تكن مصلحة ظاهرة يخاف فوتها بالتأخير كحديث عائشة، فيستحب تحصيل ذلك الزوج؛ لأن الأب مأمور بمصلحة ولده فلا يفوتها[33]
Translate into: and Al-Nawawi said: I know that Al-Shafii and his companions (referring to the rest three schools of thought of hanbali maliki Hanafi) they said: it’s preferable that the father should not marry off his virgin daughter until she is mature, and ask for her opinion so she won’t fall to a marriage she will later hate, and they said this doesn’t conflict with the hadith of Aisha, because their main aim is not to marry her before maturing  if there is no special benefits for her, therefore he should delay it like the hadith of Aisha then this marriage is preferable because the father is forced to provide the best interest for his child

That was just a quote I read for you…. As we can see Al-Nawawi has provided General Consensus Ijma’ that early age marriage should not acquire until there is special benefits for the child, probably that include marrying her to a rich family
This is Ijma’ I just provided general consensus here, the masked arab couldn’t even provide general consensus himself

Source#6

Later on they state the following
وهذا ما رجحه الدكتور عبد الكريم زيدان في موسوعته (المفصل في فقه الأسرة) فقال: نرجح على وجه الاستحباب أن لا يزوج الأب ابنته حتى تبلغ، إلا إذا وجد المبرر المقبول لتزويجها وهي صغيرة . اهـ. وذكر لذلك عدة أسباب فراجعها هناك.”[34]
Translate into: and this is what Dr.Abdulkarim Zaidan in his encyclopedia Al-Mafsal Fi Fiquh Al-Usra he said : we emphasize that it’s preferable for a father not to give away his child in marriage until she is mature enough to decide, only if there is a cause or a reason for early marriage

Source#7

They also state the following:


أما إذا كانت لا تطيق الوطء فإما أن تكون في سن الرضاع وما قاربه كبنت الثالثة والرابعة ونحو ذلك، وهذه لا يستمتع بها لا بوطء ولا بغيره لأنها ليست بأهل لذلك, وأما من يمكن الاستمتاع بها – دون الوطء - كبنت الثامنة مثلا فهذه ينبغي ترك الاستمتاع بها أيضا لأنه لا يؤمن أن يقود هذا إلى مواقعة الزوج لها لغلبة شهوته فيلحق بها الضرر فينبغي لأهلها أن يمنعوها منه ولا يسلموها له أصلا حتى وإن طلبها حذرا من ذلك, يقول ابن قدامة: فمتى كانت لا تصلح للوطء لم يجب على أهلها تسليمها إليه وإن ذكر أنه يحضنها ويربيها وله من يخدمها لأنه لا يملك الاستمتاع بها وليست له بمحل ولا يؤمن شرة نفسه إلى مواقعتها فيفضها أو يقتلها. انتهى. وفي المجموع شرح المهذب: وإن كانت المنكوحة صغيرة لا يجامع مثلها أو مريضة مرضا يرجى زواله وطالب الزوج بها لم يجب تسليمها إليه، لان المعقود عليه هو المنفعة، وذلك لا يوجد في حقها، ولانه لا يؤمن أن يحمله فرط الشهوة على جماعها، فيوقع ذلك جناية بها. انتهى.”[35]

Translate into: and if she can’t endure penetration either she was extremely young and at the age of breastfeeding or like it such as three years of age or four or close to it then it’s Not allowed to have any form of sexual pleasure either by penetration or similar to it because she is not physically able to, but for those who simply use sexual pleasure with no intercourse with the age of eight then it’s also not allowed for him to have sexual pleasure with her too, because it’s will lead to him having his sexual desires overtake him and he will cause her damage, so it’s obligatory for her parents to take her away from him and never give her back even if he asked for her, for causation only, Ibn Qudama says: when she is not ready for penetration then her parents should not deliver her to him even if he said he will only take care of her, because he has no right to have sexual pleasures with her and she is not lawful to him, and his sexual desires should not be trusted as he can damage her or kill her. Over, and in Majmu’ Sharih Al-Madhab says: and if she was married as very young he should not have sexual intercourse this is applicable when she is also sick with an illness that require a cure and the husband demanded her, she should not be handed to him because his duty is to be benefited to her, and that doesn’t acquire to her in that case, and he should not be trusted when he seems to be sexually active, and that will put him in criminal jurisdictional law. Over

That is explicitly, it can’t be clearer that that, the husband only can marry at such young age only if this benefit the daughter, but he is not allowed to have any form of sexual intercourse as we saw above

Source#8

Also Alshafii stated In Al-Hawia
وفي الحاوي في فقه الشافعي: وإذا كان الاستمتاع بها غير ممكن لم يلزم تسليمها إليه ، ولم يلزمه تسليم الصداق إليها  فإن طلب تسليمها إليه ليقوم بحضانتها وتربيتها لم يلزم تسليمها إليه أيضا ؛ لأنه لا حق له في حضانتها ، وإنما حقه في الاستمتاع الذي لم يخلق فيها فيستحقه الزوج منها ، ولأنه لا يؤمن أن تغلبه الشهوة على مواقعتها ، فربما أفضى إلى تلفها ونكايتها.”[36]
Translate into: and if sexual pleasures should not be allowed Then she should not be handled to him, and the trusted one should not handle her to him for nourishment and taking care of either, because he has no right for such, his right is only when he wish to marry her and not have sexual pleasures, but when his sexual desires overtake him he is not to be trusted at all, because he might physically damage her

Source#9

Also they state the following:
وجاء في (الموسوعة الفقهية): ذهب الفقهاء إلى أن من موانع التسليم الصغر، فلا تسلم صغيرة لا تحتمل الوطء إلى زوجها حتى تكبر ويزول هذا المانع؛ لأنه قد يحمله فرط الشهوة على الجماع فتتضرر به. وذهب المالكية والشافعية إلى زوال مانع الصغر بتحملها للوطء. قال الشافعية: ولو قال الزوج: سلموها لي ولا أطؤها حتى تحتمله، فإنه لا تسلم له وإن كان ثقة؛ إذ لا يؤمن من هيجان الشهوة. اهـ.”[37]
Translate into: and it was said in the Mausu’a Al-Fiqhia (the encyclopedia of fiquh): a lot of Fuqaha (jurisprudence) went far as to state that it’s not allowed to hand over the young ones, the young child who can’t handle penetration should not be handled to her husband until she is matured or old enough for them to have sexual intercourse, because he might  overtake her with sex and damage her, and the Maliki and Shafii went far and claim that this law barrier is removed when the young one can handle penetration, the shafii said: and even if the husband said: give her to me and I won’t have sex with her until she can take it, then even in that she is not to be handled to him even if he was trusted, because anyone who has sexual desires that over take him should not be trusted

there are many more sources i could provide but this article is long enough already

Issue#8:

@14:13 the masked arab calls any muslims who question him as “deluded” this is rather an irrational insult when is clearly faced with skepticism however the purpose of this is him citing 2 online videos of muslim clerics affirming that the young age marriage is allowed in islam
As I demonstrated above scholars are actually in disagreement regarding the age of sexual intercourse, however this is not my main issue here, the main issue is citing these video is considered an appeal to authority fallacy

According to Dr.Muhammad Rafat uthman a member of the Islamic research section in Al-Azhar University
He state the following
لفقهاء أفاضوا في مسألة الزواج فأوضحوا جواز ذلك للصغيرات لكن بشرط أن تستأذن في الزواج وأن تكون بلغت أو تجاوزت سنّ التاسعة[38]
Slide (8)
Translate into: The Jurisprudence have made the judgment in marriage and gave permission to young ones under one condition that they are to be consulted in marriage and they should reach adulthood or pass nine years of age
But don’t take my word for it, take the word of one of the most influence grand muftis in the Middle East Dr.Ali Jum’a
ورفض مفتي مصر زواج الصغيرات في أي سنّ استناداً إلى ما ورد في السنة النبوية أن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم تزوج السيدة عائشة وهي صغيرة، فقال: «أعددنا دراسة متكاملة حول تلك القضية وانتهينا إلى ضرورة وضع اختلاف طبائع البيئات في الاعتبار فلا يجوز تطبيق أعراف وعادات العصر القديم على العصر الحديث[39]

Translate into: and the Mufti of Egypt has rejected the marriage of young ones in any age even if it was based on the prophet marriage to Aisha when she was small He said : we gathered several complete studies on this case and we concluded that it’s necessary to put difference in terms of environment causes, so it should be taken note that we should not practice the old traditions and apply them to this current one’’’

to clarify I'm simply playing the same game the masked arab is playing of authority, that's all

Issue#9(pointing out irrelevant hadiths, including one rejected by all Shia):

@17:26 the masked arab cites a couple of hadiths which as he claim “highlight Muhammad Inappropriate behavior around young children” the first one being
“It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never sae al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and I found him in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa'. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"”[40]

What I would like to ask here is, what’s your point? Is the masked arab saying that the behavior above is pedophilic one? Interestingly enough Al-Tabarani made an explanation of the above hadith In Al-Ma’jam Al-Kabir (note some parts of the narration was removed for the sake of brevity):
من طريق حاتم بن إسماعيل عن سعد بن إسحاق بن كعب بن عجرة عن إسحاق بن أبي حبيبة مولى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : عن أبي هريرة أن مروان بن الحكم أتى أبا هريرة في مرضه الذي مات فيه فقال مروان لأبي هريرة : ما وجدت عليك في شيء منذ اصطحبنا إلا في حبك الحسن و الحسين قال : فتحفز أبو هريرة فجلس فقال : أشهد لخرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى إذا كنا ببعض الطريق سمع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم صوت الحسن و الحسين وهما يبكيان وهما مع أمهما فأسرع السير حتى أتاهما فسمعته يقول لها : ما شأن ابني فقالت : العطش, قال: فاخلف رسول الله الى شنة يبتغي فيها ماء, و كان الماء يومذ أغدر و الناس يريدون ماء فنادا (هل احد منكم معه ماء؟)...فلم يجد أحد قطرة .............. فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ناوليني أحدهما فناولته إياه ......... فأخذه فضمه إلى صدره وهو يضغو ما يسكت فأدلع له لسانه فجعل يمصه حتى هدأ أو سكن فلم أسمع له بكاء والآخر يبكي كما هو ما يسكت فقال : ناوليني الآخر فناولته إياه ففعل به كذلك فسكتا فما أسمع لهما صوتا ......... فأنا لا أحب هذين وقد رأيت هذا من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟[41]

Translate into: from Hatim Ibn Ishmail from Sa’ad bin Ishaq bin Ka’ab bin ‘Ujra from Ishaq bin abi Habiba appointer of the prophet of god: from Abu Huraira that Marwan bin Hakim brought abu Huraira in his sickness that he died in it so Marwan said to the father of Huraira: I have never seen anything in you during our friendship but your love to Hassan and Hussain so he said: then come Abu Huraira and sit and he said: I bare witness when we left with the messenger of Allah until we were in somewhere on the road the prophet heard the voices of Hassan and Hussain as they were crying and they were with their mother he then took his way into them fast and he asked her: what is it with my sons? I said: they are thirsty, he said: then the messenger of god ordered a Shina (a bag of water) asking for water and the water at the time was too low and people were asking for it so he asked “Does Any one of You have Water?” and he could not find not a single drop of water, he then said: give me one of them, then she gave him one, he took him to his chest and hold him but he couldn’t stop crying, so he brought his tongue to him until he sucked it and he became quite and I never heard him cry again and the other still cries so he said: bring me the other one, so I brought him to the messenger and he did the same thing and I never heard a voice from him

So as we can see Muhammad did what he did now due to his so called sexual attraction to little kids, but to the fact that they were thirsty and crying so he had no choice but to do what he have to do
Also it will not make a single sense for this to be a pedophilic act since Muhammad is straight himself, so far the masked arab has not explained why he brought this hadith
i'm not sure what is the point the masked arab is making here, the prophet never had sexual intercourse here which doesn't put him here under the category of Pedophilia as i explained scientifically, according to Mujma al zawaid, the narrators are regarded as trusted, but not sahih

Lastly he cites a hadith from Shia sources Although he admit that this source is not acceptable among a lot of Shia I will not make further comment on it since it’s irrational to do so, if we have a source that is not accepted by all muslims, then what is the point of citing such narration?
This is further clarified by the very author of the very page the masked arab is citing





As we can see under the black rectangle, it says (and this narration if it was actually authentic) then it goes on saying that this is referring to ali when he was a child

So the author of the book himself claims that this narration is not authentic, this is not some other scholars or Shias claiming it to be not authentic, this is the very author of this screenshot taken directly from the masked arab video
So the masked arab claims that this narration is only authentic among some Shia

This is false as indicated directly below it the author claims the narration to be not authentic
Later on in conclusion the masked arab asks how can Islam be a beautiful religion when a baby girl can be given in marriage at any age to fulfill the man sexual desires

This is rather a lie that has been despite in this article
1.      The scholars have no general consensus on the age of marriage
2.      Marriage doesn’t fall under the criteria of pedophilia as explained in the introduction
3.      No scholar claims that you can have sexual intercourse with a baby girls as much as you desire so long as you can’t harm her

This should be further clarified as girls are tested before being handed to her husband as I demonstrated using the same book the masked arab used

he further ask “how can you denied pedophilia has nothing to do with islam” this has been already answered by the academic sources provided in the introduction



Summary

So Far The masked arab Has failed to provide a single source where classical Islamic scholar unanimously agree that it’s allowed to have sexual intercourse with a child even on cradle he lied and mistranslated a commentary from Sharih Al Bari, he failed to validate the claims of his when he stated that verse 65:4 allow sex even before a child reach puberty, he Failed to Provide General Consensus of Scholars Regarding the Issue of sex during the cradle, he Failed to Define Pedophilia and accurately presume the prophet Muhammad Falls under such assertion, he made a childish conversation between him and an imaginary character to provoke the emotions of his fans and Muslims alike, later he make the poor excuse of citing 3 online videos of scholars to justify his claim that islam allow sex and marriage with prepubescent girls, when none of them stated that sex with prepubescent girls is allowed




[8] Ibid (same as the above source)
[11] The Jew and the Christian Missionary by Gerald Sigal,  Ktav Publishing House,1981, page 28.
[12] Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman by Montgomery Watt, page 229.
[13] Kinship And Marriage In Early Arabia by William Robertson Smith Page.95
[14] Kecia Ali Sexual Ethics And Islam Feminist Reflection Page.137
[20] Christensen KY, Maisonet M, Rubin C, et al; Progression through puberty in girls enrolled in a contemporary British cohort. J Adolesc Health. 2010 Sep;47(3):282-9. Epub 2010 Apr 21.
[21] Biro FM, Huang B, Crawford PB, Lucky AW, Striegel-Moore R, Barton BA, et al. Pubertal correlates in black and white girls. J Pediatr 2006;148:234–40
[23] Tafsir Al-Qurtobi 251/1 regarding verse 43:13
[25] Sahih al-Bukhari 5138
[26] Sunan Abi Dawud 2096 Grade: Sahih
[27] Sunan Abi Dawud 2098 Grade: Sahih
[28] Sahih al-Bukhari 5136
[29] Rad Al-Muhtar Ala Al-Dur Al-Mukhtar Volume.4 Page.381
[30] Sharih Fatih Al-Qadir Vol.3 Page.383
[31] Al-Mabsut Vol.4 Page.212
[32] Al-Bahir Al-Raiq Vol.3 Page.210
[34] Ibid (same as above)
[36] Ibid (same as above)
[39] Ibid (same as above)
[40] Adab Al-Mufrad Book 48, Hadith 1183
[41] Al-Ma’jam Al-Kabir 50-51/3 hadith 2656

53 comments:

  1. very thorough refutation, i knew masked Arab was being dishonest.

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    Replies
    1. More of that comming I'll wait for him to make a new video then probably I will address him ones again
      Thanks for the support

      Delete
  2. AOA,

    I don't know if you knew about them, but the arguments provided in following articles are very good:
    muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part1.html
    muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part2.html

    The best thing about them was that hundreds of references that were used to support the author's arguments.

    Regarding the verse 65:4, in addition to the points you mentioned, there is a particular disorder called Amenorrhea or particularly in this case, Primary Amenorrhea which is a delay in the onset of first menstruation cycle. In this condition even by age 20 women don't have their first periods. The verse could've been talking about this condition. Ironically, for the case of women suffering with this disorder the Western, maturity at 18-years old, law also allows "those [women] who have not menstruated" to get divorced.

    Additionally, from one source I read, some Muslim scholars defined an age-range of 9-15 in which a girl might start her menstruation cycles and therefore be considered as an adult capable of making her own decisions. If she had reached 15 years of age and still had not started her cycles, she was by default considered an adult (even though she had not menstruated).

    Regards,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i don't necessarily agree with their approach, plus my article above is a refutation to TMA claims, i don't make any argument above at all, but i do appreciate the reference

      as for the disorder, i know about it but the issue here is that TMA assumes that illness is not mentioned but i still dealt with that
      menstruation cycle doesn't start at 9-15 but directly after breast development which is more likely at 11 or 12

      but thanks for the contribution anyways

      Delete
    2. Menstruation start 2-3 years after breast developement (last stage of tarner) puberty usually between 11-12 and menstruation is at 14-15 in our times, people should learn differenciation between Betrothal wich was common in bilblical and arab and all societies Unttil 19th ,actof marriage before consummation and cohabitation ,the verse 65:4 talk about betrothed (engaged) pubert but have not get their menstruation as all women as in old times and also those pubert and Old women who have lot their menstruations by medical illness ,there are many causes ,type on google cause of Spanio-menorrhea :traumatic,psychological,Poly kyste ovaire,tuberculose ovariene ,Cancer hormonal disorder ..ect the verse in arabic say " who have NOT menstruated" there is NO "yet" in authentic arabic quran , idk why they translated as "Not yet" !!

      Delete
    3. Actually as I have demonstrated, puberty start as early as 8 not 11
      Although you are correct the verse doesn't stated anywhere the following statment "not yet" but it's understandable by polemicists such as the masked Arab that the verse will make such assertion, but as we saw girls before mensturation already hit puberty as early as 8, he said that the verse permit sex with girls who have not hit puberty the problem with that is that girls before mensturation already hit puberty which will leave a question, how does he know this verse in particular reference to girls before the age of 8?

      Delete
    4. @Salim mez,
      I might be wrong, but I don't think that the verse is talking about betrothed girls, because it is talking about the waiting period, which is not required in case of divorce before the consummation of marriage.

      Regards,

      Delete
    5. i don't think so, as i demonstrated scholars have not made a general consensus regarding the age of marriage or even sexual intercourse, but sexual intercourse is not permitted before marrige

      Delete
  3. Correction bro, I and a friend were some of the first to expose his sahih lie of the muddy water hadith.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you are referring to Guy Fawkes, that is my secondary account

      Delete
  4. So you're ok with babies being married?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you don't seam to be a careful reader, Read the note right at the start of my blog, seriously it's right under the title

      Delete
  5. you should do a blog about wiki islam

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why? doesn't this article articulate the point directly, that classical Islamic scholars don't have a fix opinion on the age of marriage, and they actually recommended to wait until she is mature? i also provided sources where Islamic scholars agree that sex with a child even in cradle is not appropriate until she is ready

      Wikiislam simply reforms the claims on their own cite that is it, the point of the matter is that Aisha was 9 years old when Muhammad was over 50, i dealt with that above

      Delete
    2. I'm also currently working on a new reply to the masked arab

      Delete
    3. what is the reply going to be about or what video?

      Also can you do a reply to this
      https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith

      Delete
    4. it's going to be about his video regarding chapter 18 of the Quran and the so called Mas'ud manuscript and the so called test that Zaid ibn harith did to Muhammad, basically it's going to be about his video "the chapter that gave it all away"

      Delete
    5. i just clicked on one of the random hadiths brought by this website one of them is
      "It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: "O Nafi’! The blood is boiling in me, find me a cupper, but let it be someone gentle if you can, not an old man or a young boy. For I heard the Messenger of Allah say: ‘Cupping on an empty stomach is better, and in it there is healing and blessing, and it increases one’s intellect and memory. So have yourselves cupped for the blessing of Allah on Thursdays, and avoid cupping on Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. Have yourselves cupped on Mondays and Tuesdays, for that is the day on which Allah relieved Ayyub of Calamity, and He inflicted calamity upon him on a Wednesday, and leprosy and leucoderma only appear on Wednesdays, or on the night of Wednesday"


      if you look up the sanad it says Da;f which means this hadith is weak, a simple google would have fixed this embarrassing error by wikiislam, i wander what embarrassing errors i will uncover if i go through them, so my question to you is this, Why are you worried about such nonacademic biased website?

      Delete
    6. intresting...i should have done more research about the hadiths that they state. but one hadith that i have a problem with is the camel urine hadith, is it realy authentic? that hadith always bothers me

      also i think you should wait until he uploads a new video and refute that because the chapter that gave it away video is been easy to refute

      Delete
    7. Acctually looking back at the video, the only good point he makes is in the beginning about miracles and the quran miracle and nasa so maybe you could respond to that

      Delete
    8. will you could be right about the only good point he makes is being in the beginning of the video regarding Nasa and the splitting of the moon, but then again can you explain to me why do you find it as an issue? for example Hamza Tzortzis now no longer belives that scientific miracles is good example for Quran divinity

      also the splitting of the moon verse can have multiple meanings, some scholars argue that it's not yet Happining as it will only happen during the end of times

      Delete
    9. actually almost all of his videos are weak and easily refutable, i just look at the ones that has higher meaning and more impact and lower views on them so i won't get my blog abused
      i mean look at it now, i only refuted 3 of his videos and yet the blog is already getting abused with hate comments from his fans
      imagine what will happen if i post it on his video that has over 300k views, i think i will receive too many reports and his fans will do something to delete it
      as for the hadith regarding camel urine first i think you should contact Professor Johnathan ac brown regarding the issue and ask him as he is an expert on hadith
      also post it to his Facebook post where he asked people to post problematic hadith for him to deal with since he will be writing a book about them
      now as for me regarding the hadith according to Islamic tradition it seams contradictory, in the sanad chain of narration the hadith is regarded authentic, but according to the rulings of figuqh La darar wa la darar which means there should be no harm done and no harm given, and according to this ruling, if drinking camel urine is bad for health then don't drink it, this hadith shouldn't happen
      but then again you didn't make a clear comment, you didn't tell me what is bothering you about the hadith? is it because Muhammad ordered these men to drink it as medication not food, or that he killed them?
      second of all this is hypocritical , are you saying that the saudi arabian muslims are the only group feeding on urine of other animals? if that is what you are saying since your comment was very vague and you didn't make your point clear i would say now, have you heard of Black Ivory Coffey? they are one of the most expensive coffees out there, and it's extracted from elephant feces
      you also have Kopi Luwak Coffee which is collected from their feces aswell
      then again are you saying that only the muslims use feces of other animals and feed on it? if that is what you are saying then this is empirically false
      then again i don't endure the practice of camel urine as personally i don't like it and neither you should be forced to it, even if you follow hadith tradition which i don't usually do since I'm a quranist sunni, who accept only the hadiths that doesn't conflict with the Quran, again can you reiterate your points and issues regarding the hadith more clearly in your next comment?

      Delete
    10. I'm currently sick so i won't be able to complete the article, wait for next week

      Delete
  6. Aisha was nine years at time of the consummation of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad,according to SAHIH hadiths AND THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM

    ReplyDelete
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    1. don't come up to me with emotional knee jerking reaction nonsense, reply to my academic and scientific source

      or just say out loud that you don't believe in science

      Delete
    2. the hadiths about Aisha's age are authentic, you cannot reject that.


      She may hit puberty when married,Im not discussing that. but she is still 9 and her husband 54. there is still a problem here. We are not talking about an ordinary man living in the 7. century, he must be a role model for all humanity for all times but such a marriage is seen as unacceptable by todays people. Aisha's puberty does not change that fact.

      Delete
    3. "the hadiths about Aisha's age are authentic, you cannot reject that."

      as a quranist i DO reject them, don't come up to me and tell me what to believe

      plus their authenticity does nothing to counter my argument


      again i will ask do you reject science?

      "She may hit puberty when married"
      then there is no point of this discussion

      "but she is still 9 and her husband 54. "


      Pedophilia, also spelled paedophilia, also called pedophilic disorder, psychosexual disorder in which an adult has sexual fantasies about or engages in sexual acts with a prepubescent child of the same or opposite sex.
      source
      https://www.britannica.com/topic/pedophilia

      prepubescent girls, which means Girls who have not yet reached puberty, if we take your conclusion that aisha might have hit puberty, then by definition muhammad can't be a pedophile

      "We are not talking about an ordinary man living in the 7. century,"
      yes we are, he was simply following his tradition, not his sexual desires, that according to sexologists as i stated doesn't qualify him as a pedophile

      "he must be a role model for all humanity"
      and? just because he is a rule model doesn't mean we must follow everything he did
      at his time he lived in tents, houses made of clay and tree leafs, he battled with swards, does this mean we need to do all of that?

      "Aisha's puberty does not change that fact."
      yes it does, it changes the accusation of pedophilia

      Delete
  7. You can reject these hadiths with no basis, but people will believe in evidence.


    And Im not saying pedophilia.I have never said that. Im not claiming he was ill or something. the sexual intercourse between a 9 y.o. and 54 itself is the problem. If you stop misquoting me, you will see what mean: ""he must be a role model for all humanity for all times ***but such a marriage is seen as unacceptable by todays people.*** Aisha's puberty does not change THAT FACT (they still consider it unacceptable).""


    So,if islam is timeless,then why did God allow such a marriage by knowing that it would seem horrible to future generations and thus people would hate islam? Is he trying to put people off islam and then burn them eternally in hell for disbelieving it?


    Whatever you say, the truth remains: he was 54,she was 9. today's people see such a marriage as unacceptable,which makes me question the idea that "islam is for all humanity and for all times."


    ""at his time he lived in tents, houses made of clay and tree leafs"" yeah and none of us have a problem with that,people see all these as normal. That has nothing to do with Aisha issue,which people have a problem with and see as abnormal.


    The last perfect religion of God, but you need thousands of explanations and mental gymnastics to understand it. Cool..




    ReplyDelete
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    1. There IS basis for rejecting hadiths and islamic tradition, Patrica crone in her book meccan trade and rise of islam in chapter 9 laid down a couple of citations and historical context, not to mention hadiths where written 200 years after muhammad death, many of them were not even written by their initial authors, like Bukhari, it was not written by Bukhari himself, his students did so

      "And Im not saying pedophilia.I have never said that. Im not claiming he was ill or something."
      then why are you here? this article is completely dedicated to the issue of pedophilia

      "the sexual intercourse between a 9 y.o. and 54 itself is the problem."
      what is the problem in it?

      """he must be a role model for all humanity for all times ***but such a marriage is seen as unacceptable by todays people.*** Aisha's puberty does not change THAT FACT (they still consider it unacceptable)."" "

      and i already stated, just because he is a role model doesn't mean we should apply everything he did, including being a rule model for all man kind

      "So,if islam is timeless,then why did God allow such a marriage by knowing that it would seem horrible "
      first you will have to prove even to a quranist that such marriage happened
      and since when does a marriage like this represent an entire religion?

      "Whatever you say, the truth remains: he was 54,she was 9."
      and?

      "today's people see such a marriage as unacceptable,which makes me question the idea that "islam is for all humanity and for all times." "

      oh now i see, you are saying it's wrong because it's old and not in modern time, do you realize how idiotic this line of reasoning is? because you have committed appeal to novelty fallacy
      The appeal to novelty (also called argumentum ad novitatem) is a fallacy in which one prematurely claims that an idea or proposal is correct or superior, exclusively because it is new and modern.

      """at his time he lived in tents, houses made of clay and tree leafs"" yeah and none of us have a problem with that"

      strawman fallacy, my point is that not everything in his time should be simulated
      and no alot of people do have a problem with such thing, it's called being backward

      "The last perfect religion of God, but you need thousands of explanations and mental gymnastics to understand it. Cool.."
      another knee jerk reaction and an emotional charge


      here is a small idea, just because something is new or modern or belong to the 21st century doesn't make it superior or better, this line of reasoning is fallacious

      judging a 7th century traditional marriage just because it's old and incompatible with 21st century especially given the fact that the female in the marriage scientifically DID hit puberty is not any argument



      so now i will ask this question and don't ignore it
      DO you have an issue with science?

      Delete
  8. "it was not written by Bukhari himself, his students did so"

    How do you know that?


    DO you have an issue with science?


    No

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    1. https://www.academia.edu/474439/Bukhari_-_Introduction

      Delete
    2. "The first to author a Sahih was Bukhari, Abū ʿAbd Allāh Muḥammad ibn Ismāʿīl al-Juʿfī, followed by Abū al-Ḥusayn Muslim ibn al-Ḥajjāj an-Naysābūrī al-Qushayrī, who was his student, sharing many of the same teachers. These two books are the most authentic books after the Qurʾān. As for the statement of Al-Shafi‘i, who said "I do not know of a book containing knowledge more correct than Malik's book," – others mentioned it with a different wording – he said this before the books of Bukhari and Muslim. The book of Bukhari is the more authentic of the two and more useful."

      Muqaddimah Ibn al-Salah, pg. 160-9

      Delete
  9. Your quotes states some said "he can have sex with her if she is 9" How can a girl be ready for sex when she is 9?



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    1. What quote? I was referring to the masked arab who said in islam a man can have sex with a girl regardless of her age, not only did I demonstrated this is false, i was simply referring to his statement

      Delete
    2. The age of marriage and the age of sex. These are two diffirent things. You seem to have failed to distinguish those.

      Islam does NOT set an age limit for marriage. A man can marry a girl at any age. Like this quote says:

      "Fatih Al-Bari Fi Sharih Sahih Bukhari Vol.11 Page.25
      And here is what he said “Muslim schools of Jurisprudence Unanimously allow the marriage of young girls, even if they were still babies in cradle, but intercourse cannot occur until the girl can be ready for it”


      BUT; that does NOT mean the husband can comsummate his marriage regardless of the girl's age. He may be married but cannot have sex if she is not ready,which you try to prove in that article. Scholars differ regarding the age of sex (comsummation). All those disagreements you mention is about the age of comsummation, not the age of marriage. So,when is a girl ready for sex ? Thats the question.


      Ibn Najim Al-Masri in his book Al-Bahir Al-Raiq
      “وإختلفوا في وقت الدخول بالصغيرة ، فقيل لا يدخل بها ما لم تبلغ ، وقيل يدخل بها إذا بلغت تسع سنين ، وقيل إن كانت سمينة جسيمة تطيق الجماع يدخل بها وإلاّ فلا.”[32]

      Translate into: and scholars disagreed in the time of consummation of marriage with a young one, some said that he can’t have sexual intercourse until she is matured,some said until she is nine years of age

      From your source #1:
      Al-‘Atabi said: our scholars chooses nine years old, but it’s corrected not to minimize it because it’s different from one girl to another”


      So, its true that you cant have sex with a baby or a child, but you can just marry with them without comsummating the marriage.


      Also some scholars say she must be at least 9 years old for sex, this is highly problematic. How can a girl be ready for sex when 9 ?? Now, According to islam, you can have sex with a 9 y.o. Do you think this is OK ?


      And do you think there is nothing wrong to marry a baby? Or a little child? Even if you cant have sex, does it mean its totally OK to marry them?

      Delete
    3. I did distinguish between these two, this is a strawman fallacy

      "Islam does NOT set an age limit for marriage. A man can marry a girl at any age. Like this quote says"

      I honestly have no clue why would you say something like that when I clearly showed scholars didn't provide general consensus regarding this issue
      As I stated in this blog

      "قال : وبلغنا ، عن رسول الله (ص) : إنه تزوج عائشة (ر) وهي صغيرة بنت ستة سنين وبنى بها وهي بنت تسع سنين ، وكانت عنده تسعاً ففى الحديث دليل على جواز نكاح الصغير والصغيرة بتزويج الآباء ، بخلاف ما يقوله إبن شبرمة وأبوبكر الأصم رحمهم الله تعالى : إنه لا يزوج الصغير والصغيرة حتى يبلغا.”[31]

      Translate into: he said: we reached a word about the Prophet : he married Aisha when she is young at the age of six and consummated the marriage at the age of nine years, and she remained with him for nine years, so in the hadith evidence to allow marriage with young ones of male and female from fathers, however there is a disagreement from ibn shibrma and abu bakir Al-Asim may god have mercy on their sols they said : a young one should not be married until she is old enough"

      Thai proves that scholars in islamic traditional don't have a fix age of marrige,not to mention the fact that al shadi'i as i stated preferred marrige of adults


      "All those disagreements you mention is about the age of comsummation, not the age of marriage. So,when is a girl ready for sex ?"

      Again false, as demonstrated above


      "So, its true that you cant have sex with a baby or a child, but you can just marry with them without comsummating the marriage. "

      You will have to provide ijma' or general consensus regarding this issue

      "Also some scholars say she must be at least 9 years old for sex, this is highly problematic"
      Why is this problematic ? When I showed clearly tags there are scholars who stated that she should be tested and only consummated when she is ready, so how is that problematic?

      But you contradicted yourself , at first you said this

      " So, its true that you cant have sex with a baby or a child,"
      Now you say this

      "Also some scholars say she must be at least 9 years old for sex,Now, According to islam, you can have sex with a 9 y.o. Do you think this is OK ? "

      Which one you are saying, did scholars agree in general consensus or not?

      "And do you think there is nothing wrong to marry a baby? Or a little child? Even if you cant have sex, does it mean its totally OK to marry them?"

      You need to provide general consensus that all scholars in islamic history agree that you must marry a child, and you must also provide standards into what define a child, and you need to provide scientific reason as to why Aisha didn't hit puberty

      In conclusion, you contradicted yourself
      At first you stated you cant have sex with a child at any age, then later you state you can have sex at age of 9, so which one?

      Delete
    4. Im talking with islamic logic. By "child", I meant those whom you cant have sex even when married.since you can hv sex with 9 y.o. girls According to some scholars, they dont count as "child". You can marry girls at any age but cant have sex at any age.Dont be so obsessed with words. Based on those scholars' fatwa, today muslims can have sex with 9 y.o. girls,its islamic.


      Also I quoted fatih al-bari which says there is ijma on child marriage:. "Fatih Al-Bari Fi Sharih Sahih Bukhari Vol.11 Page.25
      And here is what he said “Muslim schools of Jurisprudence Unanimously allow the marriage of young girls" even babies. Stop misquoting.

      Delete
    5. And as i have shown you multiple times yet you remain stubborn that there is no genealogy consensus regarding the age of marrige 

      "Im talking with islamic logic" 
      What do you mean islamic logic?

      "By "child", I meant those whom you cant have sex even when married.since you can hv sex with 9 y.o" 
      Again scholars don't agree and don't have general consensus regarding the issue 

      "According to some scholars, they dont count as "child""

      Let's assume for the sake of the argument this correct, even though I have shown time and time again this is false, other scholars do consider them child


      "You can marry girls at any age"
      This will be the last time I post this 

      "
      “قال : وبلغنا ، عن رسول الله (ص) : إنه تزوج عائشة (ر) وهي صغيرة بنت ستة سنين وبنى بها وهي بنت تسع سنين ، وكانت عنده تسعاً ففى الحديث دليل على جواز نكاح الصغير والصغيرة بتزويج الآباء ، بخلاف ما يقوله إبن شبرمة وأبوبكر الأصم رحمهم الله تعالى : إنه لا يزوج الصغير والصغيرة حتى يبلغا.”[31]

      Translate into: he said: we reached a word about the Prophet : he married Aisha when she is young at the age of six and consummated the marriage at the age of nine years, and she remained with him for nine years, so in the hadith evidence to allow marriage with young ones of male and female from fathers, however there is a disagreement from ibn shibrma and abu bakir Al-Asim may god have mercy on their sols they said : a young one should not be married until she is old enough"

      So no, scholars don't have general consensus regarding this issue 


      "Based on those scholars' fatwa, today muslims can have sex with 9 y.o. girls,its islamic."

      I can see now you have not read my blog, if you did so you can clearly see that it also cited scholars of my own who say you cant have sex with a 9 years old, 

      Read issue #7 of my article and all of the sources cited, which clearly state cording to many scholars, a girl can't be handed to her husband in sex if she is not ready , or when she is matured 

      Now I see that you didn't read the blog, perhaps you are one of those who made 3 reddit forums about my article spewing out nonsense and strawman there and there, so leave these reddit forum and read the blog before you comment on things I already answered

      Delete
    6. Child marriage is permitted in the quran (65:4) Do u want me to ignore quran and look at what these 2 men say?



      --from Fath al-Bari:
      واللائي لم يحضن , فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ) ‏ ‏أي فدل على أن نكاحها قبل البلوغ جائز
      "and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible."

      http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=9381&idto=9382&bk_no=52&ID=2847



      ""Getting married at an early age is something that is confirmed by the book of Allah, the Sunnah of his Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), the consensus of the scholars and the actions of the companions, and the Muslims who came after them.
      Moreover, the interest of Shariah proves it. So the claim that this was abrogated is not correct. And the Hadith did not include that meaning; it just states that a virgin woman is not to be married until consulted.
      The evidence from the Qur'an is:
      1. The saying of Allah: "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]". (At-Talaq 65:4)
      So, Allah set rulings of marriage, divorce and waiting period for the women who have not yet had menses, i.e. the young girls.
      The Iddah (waiting period) does not take place except after marriage.
      Child marriage in Islam
      Islamweb, Fatwa No. 88089, June 24, 2004





      Also this is quite interesting: Fatwa: ‘It Is Permissible to Have Sexual Intercourse with a Prepubescent Girl

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/fatwa-it-is-permissible-to-have-sexual-intercourse-with-a-prepubescent-girl?doing_wp_cron=1466400049.6936120986938476562500

      Delete
    7. I honestly can't belive you cited jihad watch as your source,

      As for 65:4 this will be the last time I ask you to read my blog under issue #3 I already dealt with this verse

      Answer my question now, how do you know that this verse is referring to prebuscent girls

      As puberty is hit before a girl have her first menstrual cycle

      Next time, don't come to me and embarrass yourself with a non academic source like jihad watch or wikiislam

      This is like the forth time I deal with you, and honestly I can't belive how contradicting you are, at first you state

      " So, its true that you cant have sex with a baby or a child,"

      Now you cite jihad watch and 65:4 to justify your claim that you can have sex with a child? You are not paying any attention and i already dealt with the issue #7

      " Translate into: and if she can’t endure penetration either she was extremely young and at the age of breastfeeding or like it such as three years of age or four or close to it then it’s Not allowed to have any form of sexual pleasure either by penetration or similar to it because she is not physically able to, but for those who simply use sexual pleasure with no intercourse with the age of eight then it’s also not allowed for him to have sexual pleasure with her too, because it’s will lead to him having his sexual desires overtake him and he will cause her damage, so it’s obligatory for her parents to take her away from him and never give her back even if he asked for her, for causation only, Ibn Qudama says: when she is not ready for penetration then her parents should not deliver her to him even if he said he will only take care of her, because he has no right to have sexual pleasures with her and she is not lawful to him, and his sexual desires should not be trusted as he can damage her or kill her. Over, and in Majmu’ Sharih Al-Madhab says: and if she was married as very young he should not have sexual intercourse this is applicable when she is also sick with an illness that require a cure and the husband demanded her, she should not be handed to him because his duty is to be benefited to her, and that doesn’t acquire to her in that case, and he should not be trusted when he seems to be sexually active, and that will put him in criminal jurisdictional law. Over


      That is explicitly, it can’t be clearer that that, the husband only can marry at such young age only if this benefit the daughter, but he is not allowed to have any form of sexual intercourse as we saw above

      Source#8

      Also Alshafii stated In Al-Hawia

      “وفي الحاوي في فقه الشافعي: وإذا كان الاستمتاع بها غير ممكن لم يلزم تسليمها إليه ، ولم يلزمه تسليم الصداق إليها  فإن طلب تسليمها إليه ليقوم بحضانتها وتربيتها لم يلزم تسليمها إليه أيضا ؛ لأنه لا حق له في حضانتها ، وإنما حقه في الاستمتاع الذي لم يخلق فيها فيستحقه الزوج منها ، ولأنه لا يؤمن أن تغلبه الشهوة على مواقعتها ، فربما أفضى إلى تلفها ونكايتها.”[36]

      Translate into: and if sexual pleasures should not be allowed Then she should not be handled to him, and the trusted one should not handle her to him for nourishment and taking care of either, because he has no right for such, his right is only when he wish to marry her and not have sexual pleasures, but when his sexual desires overtake him he is not to be trusted at all, because he might physically damage her"

      Im done with you here, you are not even trying, you contradicted yourself, and you cite uncritical biased sources, and best of all you didn't read my blog

      Delete
  10. Please make video so many people are getting the wrong idea of islam through you tube and he is getting a lot of views please make time and debunk him and kronos d btw did you create a debunk blog for sharia for dummies.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've explained before why i don't make videos, also Kronos no longer make videos, he seams like a buffoon to me, i might take a look at his video sharia for dummies when i get the chance

      Delete
  11. I have just read that you are a quranist who accepts some hadith.
    That for example is one of my Problems with islam. Hadith are subjective.You dont accept hadiths which are not against the quran , but who decides this`? Most sunnis accept all sahih Hadith and then try to reconcile them with the quran or other hadiths.Many sunnis say that bukhari and muslim are 100% sahih , some say a few hadiths are weak. For example the great hadith scholar AL-albani declared some hadiths of those collections to be weak. Furthermore there is afaik no single book which cover every singlehadith and i bet 99,9% of muslims have never read every unique hadith which is out there. And as a non arab you dont even have access to every single hadith book for example sahih ibn hibban or sahih ibn khuzaimah.The question remains why isnt there a single hadithbook which covers every single hadith ?If i want to read the bible and want to understand christianity , i know they have 39 books of the old and 27 of the new testament and i can read them.But if you want to know more about islam you cant read every single hadith and if i want to know a religion i want to read all of the primary sources. So how can you know islam is true if you dont even read every single hadith? I also cannot just read the new testament and say what christianity is all about , i have to read the complete bible.
    The Problems
    1.There are different opinions about a hadith , whether its true or not.So the sources are not fixed.
    2.As a english reader you dont have access to every single hadith. So you cant inform yourself to 100%.
    3.I bet there are almost no one who have read every single hadith.So 99,9% of muslims cant confirm they have read everything about islam.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I have just read that you are a quranist who accepts some hadith."
      that is no longer accurate presentation of my beliefs

      so apparently your problem is acceptability to arabic materials, this is not an issue , first in today world we have the internet, all 6 most authentic islamic books have been fully translated (all be it i saw some translation errors myself) so actually you got no excuse to claim that
      however you don't need access to all hadith collection books to have full grasp of mukhtasar al fiquh al islami, several hadiths cited in sahih bukhari can also be found duplicated in sahih muslim aswel, making it redundant to make a distinction between the two, also it seams that you are confused by the word "sahih" in a book, just because a specific author has a sahih collection doesn't mean it's approved by islamic community
      let's take a look at Sahih Khuzaima as an example, in case you didn't know, that is not it's real name
      the real name is
      " مختصر المختصر من المسند الصحيح عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بنقل العدل عن العدل موصولا إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم من غير قطع في أثناء الإسناد ولا جرح في ناقلي الأخبار "
      mukhtasar al mukhtasar min musnad al sahih 'an al nabi muhammad sala allah alih wa salam bi naqil 'adil 'an al adel mausolan ilayh salah allah alih wa salam min ghair qati' fi athna al isnad wa la jarih fi naqil al akhbar
      Translation:
      brefiation of the brefiation from the authentic sanad from the prophet by just transition of just tradition attributed to the prophet without cut in sanad or anomaly in hadith narrators
      as you can see that is a very very long name, but it was shorten to sahih ibn khuzama, this book was written to combine several attributed tradition to the prophet muhammad
      let's take a look at what ibn hajar said regarding non bukhari and muslim sahih books like sahih bin khuzama
      "hukum (judment) on the hadiths that are in sahih khuzama and ibn habban are authentication that should not be reliant upon because they are circular reasoning between sahih and hassan of which non of them appear to have a major problem"
      al nukat 'ala ibn salah vol 1 page 291
      now modern day scholar Muhammad mustafa al azami said
      "sahih ibn khuzama is nothing like sahih bukhari and muslim meaning not everything in it is sahih, some are hasan and some are weak
      tahkik al azami vol 1 page 22
      now here is the important part, several scholars noted that sahih khuzama is next to bukhari and muslim in authenticity slightly above sahih habban, but we need to understand not every hadith collection is used for tradition, some are used as study materials for hadith students, that is why we still have weak hadiths recorded in Islamic tradition and are not purged away or removed, because not only it help us recognize weak narrators it help us practice and study hadith science
      1-yes there are wide range of opinion, but almost if not ALL hadith scholars agree that bukhari and muslim and the next 4 major islamic books (some refer to them as 9 by adding other 3 books) these are the primary source for sunnah tradition, and other hadith collection books take their hadith approach from them
      2-you don't have to the 6 major most authentic hadith tradition books are already translated, muslim scholars regard these as the only needed ones
      3-actually there are who spend their life time studying and reading hadith, not to mention we have the internet, if these who read hadith tradition never came across any about what you might find distasteful why they ignore it? you don't need to read EVERYTHING about hadith to confirm islam, usualy the quran and the 6 major books are good enough
      you also have dedicated books such as mukhtasar al sunnah, that brefiate sunnah al nabawia

      Delete
    2. I would like to read every single hadith , becaus i want to read 100% about islam.If i want to know about Christianity , i have all the books and i would read every book , even tough some books are not very important. And i know that those 6 dont cover every single hadith .
      1.So the sources are not 1000% fixed . Al albani spend decades to study hadith and his opinions about hadith authenticity is found at sunnah.com on abu dawud for example.
      2.Says who? i know that bukhari covers the most important aspects of islam and so on , but i want every single unique hadith.I also read all 27 books of the new testament not just 26.
      3.Yes certain scholars may have read every single hadith , allthough i doubt it because for example certain recensions from muwatta imam malik arent printed yet.the muwatta you read today is most likely from Yaḥyā ibn Yaḥyā.BUT There is a recension from Abū Muṣʿab az-Zuhrī which was printed in 1993 which has a number of hadiths which you dont find at yahya ibn yahya.
      4.It wonders me why there is not a single hadith booken which muhammad himself ordered. That would made the hadith science unnecessary. Every hadith would be sahih and not like sahih , hasan and daif.

      Delete
    3. But why? Why would you read and study the weak ones ? And how do you know that the 6 most authentic hadith sources doesn't include 100% all islam ? And why would it have to be 100%? You can read an article for example and form an opinion about it's legitimacy only half way through it
      So why the need to read every hadith out there ?
      Are you saying islam can never be true because not all books are translated?

      Delete
    4. I know that those six books contain a lot about islam , but not all . I just want to have 100% because i would expect this from the true religion. This is why also dont study christianity , because there are textual variants and you cant say for sure which is the correct one.So the source (the bible is not perfect) and islam is not better. Islam has 7 accepted versions of the quran so if want to read the quran you need to have a quran with the 7 variants , but the quran is not complete islam .So you need the hadith and i just want to read every hadith , because i want to read about islam 100%. As a said if i would read the bible i would read every book and not leave one. So in summary i have problems with the sources of the religions . If christianity would be perfect the bible would have no textual variants and if islam would be perfect there would be 1 single hadith book , 1 single authentic biography about him and 1 quran . The problem is as long if i dont have access do every single hadith , i cant just about islam 100%.Its just my criterion that the true religion has perfect sources and i cant find any religion which has perfect sources.

      Delete
    5. Ok you still didn't answer my question, why do you want to read 100% about islam?
      "islam has 7 accepted versions of the Quran" i think you are referring to the Qiraat not some different versions, there is no such thing as "versions of quran" only readings, reading is a different word than variation, reading is designed to make a specific text understandable for a specific group of people, not radically different
      "so if want to read the quran you need to have a quran with the 7 variants"
      this is the first time i hear of such line of reasoning, that is non sequitur fallacy, you just need to read the most popular (not the most authentic but popular, notice the difference between the two words)
      " If christianity would be perfect the bible would have no textual variants and if islam would be perfect there would be 1 single hadith book , 1 single authentic biography about him and 1 quran"
      that is another non sequitur fallacy, each book is degined and specified for particular related issues, also putting all hadiths in a single book (even the authentic ones) is next to impossible duo to the sheer huge numbers of them, that is why we have something called "volumes" and "categories" also as i said many hadiths in sahih buhari can also be found in sahih muslim as duplicate

      "perfect sources"
      i have no clue what perfect sources means, are you talking about authenticity, then we do have what is called ilm al jarih wa a ta'dil, and ilm al rijal two branches of hadith science specified to identify weak narrators to cleanse islamic sources from weak hadiths, the bible or Christianity doesn't have such branches in biblical studies

      again, you Can't contain all hadiths in one book, that is just Impossible to ask for, the book can't even physically exist at all, no book volume will handle such long pages, that is wy we divide them by authors like nisai and maja and dawood and bukhari and muslim

      Delete
    6. I would read every hadith to make sure what islam is all about.
      These 7 variants of the quran also differ in meaning.Warhs for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsh_%27an_Naafi%27
      All these 7 variants have some own reading.
      And as I said there are diffrent views about authenticity about hadiths so the hadith which you may read and follow could be a daif hadith.
      If shortly after muhammads dead a complete work on the hadiths would have been written this would have solved alot of problems like it would be accepted from historians , there would be no hadith science and there would be just one hadith WORK.
      Yes it is maybe not possible to print into one book , but you could write one Work of hadith and divide them into many volumes.That would many things far easier.

      Delete
    7. this is going to be my final time asking you this question so please stop ignoring it, why do you need to read all hadiths books given the fact that many are duplicate in both sahih bukhari and muslim? and how can reading 100% of all islamic sources (which is impossible) could varify a faith to you?
      "These 7 variants of the quran also differ in meaning.Warhs for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsh_%27an_Naafi%27"
      "Warsh 'an Naafi' is one of the main canonical methods of reciting the Qur'an. The recitations of the Quran, known in Arabic as Qira'at, are conducted under the rules of the Tajwid Science"
      recitation and tajwid are not the same as readings, tajwid is the science of recitation based on quranic vocabulary and arabic grammar, it has Nothing to do with meaning of words
      let's take an example from your own source wikipedia
      now according to several currently existing arabic direlect, sakar سكر (arabic egyptian for close the door) for example is similar sid in gulf dilect, but as you can see two completly different words in shape and spelling but identical in meaning, so at first we have a problem of such an inappropriate source like wikipedia relying on the shape and the spelling of a word instead of it's actual meaning, usually they are using fusha to translate meaning of two similar words in meaning but different in spelling and shape, this is a horrific methodology
      but even your own source Wikipedia gives direct reference to tajwid and recitation science in quran to tell you not to judge words by appearance
      now we do have a hadith that verify this
      "I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said (to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)), "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O `Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O `Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)"
      https://sunnah.com/bukhari/66/14
      so if the meanings are so radically different why didn't muhammad notify hashim and umar of this
      for more on this issue read muhammad mustafa azami book history of quranic text
      "Yes it is maybe not possible to print into one book , but you could write one Work of hadith and divide them into many volumes.That would many things far easier."
      and that is what bukhari and muslim did
      so again i ask, why do we have two different words in spelling and shape like سكر and سد which both can mean (close or close the door) but as you can see, both are quite radically different in spelling but have identical meanings, this tell us not to use spelling and shape as benchmark tool

      Delete
    8. 1.I would like to read every single authentic hadith to know that i have read complete about islam.You need to read every single hadith that you know what your religion is all about. If I would read the bible i would also read all books.
      I know that sahih muslim covers 90% or so what also is in bukhari , i just want to read every single hadith and not every single hadith book.
      2.Bukhari and Muslim didnt cover all hadiths , thats why im saying that it would be better to collect every single hadith into one work with many volumes.
      3.I know that the diffrences of warsh and hafs and so on are minor but they are here.For example which of this 2 versions is the correct one " then it is what" or "it is what" or are both correct? or 28:48 two magicians or two works of magic?
      4.As I said before Hadith are a little bit subjective , so if you follow AL-albani you will have some weak hadiths in bukhari , so you have a slighlty other version.So if one Hadith work would have been written at the time of muhammad or shortly after his death , which had covered every single hadith , that would have solved so much problems.

      Delete
    9. You littralt didn't pay attention to my responses regarding the variants
      Really it's stupid to use Wikipedia as your source
      Here are question and please don't ignore them this time
      " " then it is what" or "it is what" or are both correct? or 28:48 two magicians or two works of magic?" What tafsir/mualaf did you use for there two words
      What duragotary vocabulary were used ? What are the dictionaries used for these two words ? What era do they lead to
      Now I will repeat my example that you ignored
      "now according to several currently existing arabic direlect, sakar سكر (arabic egyptian for close the door) for example is similar sid in gulf dilect, but as you can see two completly different words in shape and spelling but identical in meaning, so at first we have a problem of such an inappropriate source like wikipedia relying on the shape and the spelling of a word instead of it's actual meaning, usually they are using fusha to translate meaning of two similar words in meaning but different in spelling and shape, this is a horrific methodology
      but even your own source Wikipedia gives direct reference to tajwid and recitation science in quran to tell you not to judge words by appearance"

      Delete
    10. 1.Of courese you need to read 100% Islam , because you need to know what you approve , if you would accept islam or islam is your belive. You may say that the 6 books are the most important and I think they are but still from the bible i would also read all 66 Books and not 61 ,62 or so.
      2.Your Sources are not Fixed that means the hadith you may read which is classified sahih , may be classified daif from other scholars. Thats very strange that certain hadiths are subjective , that also means that your sources are changing.
      3.Afaik sira sources are not authentic (ibn ishaq , ibn sad or tabari).So where do you get your chronollogy from? Is it possible to form a chronollogy Sira , based only on sahih hadiths? I somehow dobut it.
      4.Warsh or Hafs which is right one? two magicans or two works of magic , or are both correct?
      5.Bukhari and Muslim dont cover every SINGLE HADITH!!! It would be 10000 times better if muhammad or abu bakr would have ordered two write one standardized hadith WORK. There wouldnt be historical doubts on hadith , you wouldnt spend time to classify hadiths and there wouldnt be diffrence of opinions of Hadith.
      6. So in Summmary your sources are not perfect , but god could have made perfect sources . This is why Islam cant be trusted.

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