Thursday, August 11, 2016

The Ignorance Converted2Islam : Muhammad and blond women



(English isn't my first language so i might make grammatical mistakes)
Introduction:

I decided to tackle this argument duo to the fact not only Converted2islam brought weak sources and weak narrations, but also he foolishly claimed that the word “banat Al-Sufor” literally means blond women, this will be refuted accordingly, keep in mind this entire article is Not my work, I’m only translating the work of a famous academic YouTube apologist by the name of Abu ‘Umar al-bahith (antishubohat), the only part that contain my own work is the part that describe what does the word banat al-sufor means, and does it really mean blond women like how converted2islam would like you to know.

The main aim of this article is to expose the known sources to this narration, since converted used Al-tabari I shall do so, of course the video I’m translating from cited more sources than tabari and refuted more, but let us stick to the main source used
The following are the sources used to identify the narrations and my further examination on them

1-tafsir al-qurtubi
قال محمد ابن اسحاق: قال رسول الله للجد بن قيس  أخي بني سلمة لما اراد الخروج الى تبوك:((يا جد, هل لك في جلاد بني تتخذ منهم سراري ووصفاء؟)) فقال الجد : قد عرف قومي اني مغرم بالنساء و إني أخشى إن رأيت بنات بني الأصفر أن لاأصبر عنهن فلا تفتني بهن وائذن لي في القعود عنك وأعينك بمالي[1]

Translation:

Muhamad Ibn Ishaq said: the prophet said to Judd bin Qais the brother of bani salama when he wanted to go for tabouk: oh Judd do you not take of the Banu al asfar female captives and servants?)) Judd said: my people knew me falling in love with women easily, and I fear that if I see the girls of Banu suffor that I might not be patient with them, so don’t expose me with them, and I shall aid you with my money and remain with you

Issue#1: this is a tafsir book, not a hadith exegesis, so when we use tafsir books we use them for their explanation no narrations
Issue#2: Muhammad Ibn ishaq didn’t reach the prophet therefore this is regarded as mursal duo to the fact that Muhammad ibn isaq has a time gap between him and Muhammad of 69 years
Issue#3: the time gap between imam Qurtubi and Ibn Ishaq is more than 500 years, so that is another huge issue to deal with
Issue#4: where did Qurtubi brought this narration from, and is it authentic?

We shall now take a look at the narrations Qurtubi took this one from

Now Converted2islam cited one source for this, and it’s Tafsir Al-Tabari, I’m fully aware that I’m showing a source at the begging that he didn’t cite, but that was just part of the introduction
Now let us examine the source used by converted2islam
2-Tafsir Al-Tabari

و ذكر ان هذه الاية نزلت في الجد بن قيس
حدثني محمد بن عمرو, قال: تنا أبو عاصم, قال: حدثنا عيسى, عن أبن ابي نجيح, عن مجاهد في قول الله(ومنهم من يقول ائذن لي ولا تفتني ) قال: قال رسول الله (أغزو تبوك تغنمو بنات الأصفر نساء الروم) فقال الجد :أذن لنا ولا تفتنا بالنساء[2]

Translation:

and it was said that this verse was revealed about Judd bin Qais
Muhammad bin ‘Umro said: Abu ‘Asim said: ‘Isa told us, fro, Ibn abi Najih from Mujahid (keep this name in mind) regarding what god said in {among them is he who says, "Permit me [to remain at home] and do not put me to trial."} said: the prophet said: raid Tabuk and you shall take girls of banu asfar the women of Rome Judd said: Permit us to stay and don’t expose us to women

 “6481-Mujahid bin Jubr, Abu Hajaj Al-Makhzumi their maula, al Maki: he is trusted in tafsir and Ulom he died at the year 101 or 102 or 103 or 104 and he is 83 years old”[3]
101-83= 18 years, which means Mujahid was born after Muhammad death 18 years, which means this hadith is mursal

What evidence do you have that Mursal is not accepted?
Evidence:
“and Mursal is one of the narrations that according to us and according to the people of knowledge from reports is not to be taken as authentic”[4]

Another narration Tabari cited
حدثنا القاسم, قال: حدثنا حسين, قال حدثنى الحجاج, عن ابن جريج, عن مجاهد قال: قال رسول الله : أغزو تبوك تغنموا بنات الأصفر. يعني نساء الروم, ثم ذكر مثله
Translation:

Qasim Told us: Hussain Told us (keep this name in mind): Hajaj told us: from ibn juraij, from Mujahid (mujahid here again) said: the prophet said: : raid Tabuk and you shall take girls of banu asfar the women of Rome. Then he mentioned another alike

We can dismiss this one again duo to the fact that mujahid exist, but as you can see we saw a narrator by the name of Hussain mentioned, now we shall examin him, is he trusted?
 “sunaid Ibn Dawood Al-Misisi, Abu ali Al-Muhtasib and his name is Hussain, and Sunaid is a nickname given to him”[5]
 “Abdulrahman bin Abi Hatim said: my father asked about him: he said Da’if
And Nisai said: AlHussain Bin Dawood is not to be trusted”[6]

In a third narration cited by Tabari, is a continues citation of AlHussain as we saw, so the third narration is also rejected, remember when I stated in the narration something along the line of “Then he mentioned another alike” earlier? This is a reference to the third narration that subsequent it

However again, if you remember we mentioned a narrator by the name of ibn juraij, let also examine him
“If Ibn Juraij said: someone said and someone said, and I was told, then he brought Manakir (denied narrations) and if he said someone said to me directly, then listen to him.
And it was narrated from Al-Maimuni from Ahmed if Ibn Juraij said: (somone said): be cautious of him, and if he said (I heard or I was asked) he brought then something that doesn’t seem true”[7]

The forth narration by Imam Tabari:
حدثنا ابن حميد, قال: حدثنا سلمة, عن محمد ابن اسحاق عن الزهري و يزيد بن رومان, و عبد الله بن ابي بكر, و عاصم بن قتادة و غيرهم, قال: قال رسول الله ذات يوم, و هو في حهزه للجد بن قيس اخي بني سلمة (هل لك يا جد العام في جلاد بني الأصفر؟) / فقال يا رسول الله أو تأذن لي و لا تفتني؟ فولله لقد غرف قومي ما رجل أشد عجبا بالنساء مني

Translation:

Ibn Humaid Told us (keep this name in mind) said: salama told us, from Muhammad Ibn Ishaq from Zuhri, and Yazid bin roman, and Abdullah bin abi bakir, and ‘Asim bin Qutada and others said: the messager of god said one day and he while he was busy, to Judd bin Qais the brother of bani salma (do you Judd want to lash banu al-asfar?) he said : oh prophet of god will permit me to stay and don’t put me in trail? By god my people know no one is more attracted to women than me

Issue#6:

 “Muhammad ibn Humaid Al-Razi
Abu Zur’a and ibn wara : it’s authentic in our opinion that he lies, said : I saw my father after that if ibn Humaid was mentioned he clean his hands”[8]

Issue#7:

“Salama bin Al-Fadil bin Al-Abrash, the judge of Al-rai, he heard from Muhammad ibn Ishaq, and Abdullah bin ‘Umro bin Aian and Muhammad bin Hamid narrated from him, but he has many manakir (denid) and he is doubtful”[9]
 “241- Salama bin Al-fadil Al-Abrash: Abu Abdullah dai’f (weak) he narrate from Ibn Ishaq the raids”[10]

In another fifth narration by Tabari

حدثني يونس, قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب, قال: قال ابن زيد في قوله (ومنهم من يقول ائذن لي ولا تفتني). قال: هو رجل من المنافقين يقال له الجد بن قيس. فقال له رسول الله: العام نغزو بني الأصفر, و نتخذ منهم سراري ووصفاء.

Translation:

Yunis told us: Ibn Wahab told us: Ibn zaid said regarding {among them is he who says, "Permit me [to remain at home] and do not put me to trial."} he said: this was a man among the hypocrites it was said that his name was Judd bin Qais, the messenger of god said to him: this year we shall conquer banu al asfar, and take from them captives and servants

Issue#8: 

Ibn Zaid
 “3865-Abdullrahman bin zaid bin aslam Al-‘Adawi
Da’if”[11]


Why are they Called Banu Asfar? (My own addition)

This is going to be the most embarrassing part of this entire article, as converted2islam literally thought that the meaning of the word banu asfar means blond women, but in reality it’s not

يقال أن جدهم روم بن عيص تزوج بنت ملك الحبشة فجاء لون ولده  بين البياض والسواد فقيل له الأصفر , وقيل لان جدته سارة زوج إبراهيم عليه السلام حلته بالذهب فسمي أصفرا[12]

Translation:

It was said that their grandfather was rome bin ‘Ais married the daughter of the king of Habasha, so his son came with the skin color between whiteness and blackness so he was named Al-Asfar (literally means yellow), and it was said that his grandmother Sara was the wife of Abrahim suit him with gold so he was named Asfar

None of the above possible meanings include the hair color, I could be wrong, but that was the only source I acquired





[1] tafsir al-qurtubi Vol.10 page.232
[2] Tafsir Al-Tabari Vol.11 page.491
[3] Taqrib Al-Tahthib By Imam Ibn Hajar al-‘askalani Page.453
[4] Sahih Muslim Page.18
[5] Tahthib Al-Kamal Fi Asma Al-Rijal By Imam Hafiz abi hajaj Al-Mizi vol.12 page.161
[6] ibid page.164
[7] Siar A’lam Al Nubala Imam Shams Al-Diin Al-Dahabi vol.6 page.328
[8] Al-Majruhin Min Al-Muhadithin vol.2 page.321
[9] Al-Du’afa Al-Sagir by Imam Bukhari page.57
[10] ibid page.184
[11] Takrib Al-Tahthib Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Askalani page.282
[12] Fatih Al-Bari Fi Sharih Sahih Bukhari vol.1 Page.40

40 comments:

  1. Do you think Allah has misguided him or do you think he'll return back to islam

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    Replies
    1. Honestly i don't know, and honestly i don't care

      Delete
    2. Are you planning to tackle the issue of MA's video on offensive jihad?

      Delete
    3. No, the argument is not that impact full, and i already addressed it extensively in my reply on does islam encourage killing innocent civilians

      So I don't need to repeat myself

      Delete
  2. So what about C2I's first video? Do u think its OK to rape someone else's wife?

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    Replies
    1. No Im not talking about Safiyah,I mean his first video on the verse 4:24 and its context = married female captives

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    2. married captives doesn't mean sex, can you show me where does 4:23-24 talks about sex let alone nonconsensual sex?

      but in his first video he did mention saffiyah as part of his hypothesis

      if so are you referring to this video? "Muhammad’s Christian Female Slave"?
      this is the only video related to sex in his channel that i didn't respond to, the other one being his jewish wife that i replied to, i would recommend the following links that proves maria was actually his wife
      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/07/14/prophet-muhammeds-wife-mariyah-maria/
      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/08/05/mariyah-the-copt-and-her-relationship-with-muhammed-p-part-4/
      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/07/27/mariyah-the-copt-was-no-concubine/

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    3. "U didnt make smth about it"
      again what video are you referring to?

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    4. Or are you referring to video "Why I Left Islam"?

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    5. Yes Im referring to "why i left islam" video ,. He mentioned the verse 4:24 and its historical context,which tells that Muhammad allowed his soldiers to have sex with married captives.

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    6. there are two main reasons why i didn't dedicate a reply to this video
      1-there are already an overwhelming number of muslim replies to him in both forms of blogs and videos, so if i make a reply it will be lost among them
      2-the video has crazy amount of views and audience, over 400k views, and i don't want to risk my blog on such big number of audience, if you noticed i tend to reply to videos that has minimum number of views, and more controversial topic, i'm not gonna risk my blog on such big video

      but in spirit of discussion i'll give you some sources that deals with him

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/06/23/what-happened-to-the-captive-women-in-awtas-incident/

      Delete
    7. Okay. I read that article, didnt find it so convincing.I still think its definitely immoral to have sex with someone else's wife,even if its consensual (which I think is not the case here) I often ask muslims: "how would u feel if sb did that to ur wife?". C2I too asks this at the end of his video. I Still havent heard an answer. Noone gives a straight answer. So Im asking you the same question: do you really think there is nothing wrong here? Ur taking away someone's wife and using her as sex slave. Think about her husband's plight. What if sb does the same to you? Thats why I think this is indefensible.

      Even the sahaba tought that was bad but Allah permitted them,who is being more moral here? Allah or the sahaba?

      Im not looking for a discussion here,I just want you to think critically.

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    8. "Okay. I read that article, didnt find it so convincing.I still think its definitely immoral to have sex with someone else's wife,even if its consensual (which I think is not the case here) "

      why? isn't consent important? why is it immoral if they consented?

      of course i could dedicate an article showing that they indirectly consented, but as i said i cited my two reasons not to do so

      "I often ask muslims: "how would u feel if sb did that to ur wife?". C2I too asks this at the end of his video."
      this question is as cliche as the argument of Muhammad marriage to Aisha, i would answer with her consent, what my wife does with her body is her own business, i have no business interfering with her sexual life (apart f she have sex with another man), but of course if he raped her (non consensual) then yes i will have problems with that
      of course the claim that men were presented when they had sexual intercourse with these women is not true
      “Muhammad bin ‘Ali narrated: “When it was the day Awtas, the (disbeliever) men fled to the mountains and their women were taken as captives.” (Ahkam al-Qur’an, Dar al-Kotob al-Ilmiyya, Beirut, 1994 volume 2 page 173)
      so the men were not actually presented there, if my wife had sexual intercourse with consent with another man then my marriage contract with her is void, if she chose to cheat on me, then she is divorced

      "I Still havent heard an answer. Noone gives a straight answer."
      just because someone ask a question doesn't mean it deserves answer

      "So Im asking you the same question: do you really think there is nothing wrong here?"
      where? you have not really shown what's wrong, show me that they didn't consent (although i could show you that they consented indirectly) but the burden of proof is on you for claiming they were raped

      "Ur taking away someone's wife and using her as sex slave."
      and? did she consent again?

      "Think about her husband's plight. What if sb does the same to you? Thats why I think this is indefensible."
      again consent

      "Even the sahaba tought that was bad but Allah permitted them,who is being more moral here? Allah or the sahaba?"
      huh? where did the sahaba said it's bad?

      "Im not looking for a discussion here,I just want you to think critically."
      as someone who studied logical fallacies, and read critical thinking academic books, and read islamic science books, i think i know what I'm talking about

      and no offense, please fix the grammar

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    9. If the husband do not purchase the freedom of the wife in few months, then the marriage is nulled. And the master can have sexual relation with the captive. It is not rape.

      Delete
  3. Well,this is just my personal opinion: adultery ,or say; having sex with someone else's wife/husband,is morally wrong,whether consensual or not.If you think its OK provided there is consent,thats your opinion. We cannot discuss over that. So,thats why I have a problem with the verse and ahadith in question.


    The sahaba were reluctant bcs the women were married,they thought relations with them would be immoral so they went to Muhammad and asked him about that.



    Your link does not say anything about"consent",it just says the women were given back. So let me ask; where is ur evidence that they may have consented to have sex with those muslims? Why would a MARRIED woman want to sleep with her enemy after a war?

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    Replies
    1. "Well,this is just my personal opinion: adultery ,or say; having sex with someone else's wife/husband,is morally wrong,whether consensual or not."

      opinions are still based on reasons, so why? why do you force your morals down her throat if she tells you that she consented to sex, yes i understand that this will make her a cheater to her husband, but if she consented then what's wrong with that?

      "If you think its OK provided there is consent,thats your opinion."
      might be my opinion, but consent is a very crucial thing, as i said i could show you in an article that they indirectly consented (although this could be a topic for future article)

      "The sahaba were reluctant bcs the women were married"
      now i see, how do you know that they were reluctant because they were married not because it was considered zina?

      "Your link does not say anything about"consent""
      my link is not about consent, but to show that the men were NOT there and presented at that time
      and as i said, this topic is for future article

      but since you are a common visitor, i will give you one evidence although it's not directly linked to the indecent, but rather a moral verse
      24:33
      and yes i already know your objections to this:
      1-this verse is not related to the incident, but rather a moral verse
      in which i reply with, of course, this is just a small source, i didn't dedicate an entire article about it, but also a moral verse is something to be followed by muslims at all times
      2-it says prostitution not rape
      in which i reply with, the word prostitution is in reference to the context and the supposed reason why this verse was revealed, not the literal meaning (if we follow ISIS literal non contextual interpretation) the word in question here is Baga, which means according to lisan al arab zina or any act of fornication or adultery by free or unfree woman, since this verse says don't force your girls into baga(zina) therefore in literal ISIS style interpretation this verse says don't force them into fornication and adultery

      "where is ur evidence that they may have consented to have sex with those muslims? "
      as i said this is topic for future articles

      "Why would a MARRIED woman want to sleep with her enemy after a war?"
      how do you consider them "enemy"? why would they be labeled enemy?, and her sleeping with that man is a matter of her own moral choice, if i tell you a wife slept with another man will you ask me why she did that? or as do you already know the answer and that it's her own personal choice?

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    2. So the masked arab just made a video regarding sexual slavery,maybe its now time to show ur evidence that there was no rape and it was cool

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    3. Three problems
      First why do I have to respond?
      Second how is sexual slavery synonymous with rape?
      Third problem where did i said it was cool

      Please answer the above

      Delete
    4. Well,I didnt say you have to do it.you said you could be able to prove that it was consensual,maybe in future articles. So,I think its time now since The Masked Arab brought up the issue. That's all Im saying. Dont try to escalate any minor issue like that.

      Delete
    5. Regarding sex, i could do it indirectly
      Note I said indirectly, which I will explain what meant here in future articles, but that's not the case also the burden of proof is not on me to prove they did get raped, it's on you, since you or namingly any non muslim make such claim, also my laptob battery is malfunctioning, so I can't even turn it on, i have to take it to the shop to buy new one or get it replaced , which will delay any work I'm doing now

      Delete
  4. hey i know this is unrelated to the blog but where is the wall of gog and magog? and why havnet we found it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To be honest, i haven't done much research since it's not part of my specialty as i studied hadith scince and quranic scince, not historiography, but further research is required, but i'll give you what i remember and that is we don't know, just as much we don't know where are the seven heavens

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  5. the masked arab brought a good point before in one his vids and that was that every religion has its apologists and people who defend it so if u critice mormonism there are mormon apologists that will refute u. the same goes for every religion, so if every religion has its apologists then how could u know which religion is true and which one is false? so why couldnt allah stop all these people from spreading lies about the prophet? why did he allow false hadiths that make muhammad look like a bad peson? surly he couldve stopped ppl from spreading lies right?

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    Replies
    1. Why would he stop? That's the question here, why would god intervene

      And how do you know which one is true? By measuring the merits of the religion, see if the allegations against it can stand to scrutiny

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    2. Surly God would have intervened because he surly would've known that if these people tell lies about his prophet then many people would start leaving his religion or be confused. also, why does allah need apologists?

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    3. That's empirically false, many people tell lies about him yet islam keep growing, you can clearly see that today

      He doesn't, muslims asked for it

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    4. Instead of questioning why 'he couldve stopped ppl from spreading lies'.
      You might as well just ask why Allah let Satan deceive people till the end of days..

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    5. "You might as well just ask why Allah let Satan deceive people till the end of days"

      is that in reference to me?

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  6. just one more question, is there any good evidence do believe that islam is the truth? Thank for your time

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    Replies
    1. That depends on what islam you are talking about, what sect, evidence are also subjective , not everyone will belive you

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    2. If there is no %100 evidence ,if evidence is jusy subjective,then Allah shouldnt burn non-muslims in hell for eternity just for not being convinced due to absence of proof

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    3. What do u mean by "what islam"? The religion of islam itself meaning quran and hadith. and i know that evidences are subjective but what evidence convinced u? you said that you are a from atheist so what cinvinced to come back to islam and is there any good evidence to believe in islam?

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    4. Evidence is subjective to those who understand it, if I for example say that there are scientific miracles in the quran, you will immediately claim that no they are not evidence, even if I presented then accurately, and you will demand moral and philosophical evidence instead

      As for hell, this is yet again the problem of hell, not all non muslims will go to it if we use islamic tradtion

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    5. What islam because there are many sects of islam, no islam on its own doesn't mean quran and hadith, you have to count the quranists aswell

      Personally, the evidence that convince me is philosophy untologitcal and moral

      I reverted back to islam duo to the weakness and the stupid allegations that I used to belive i reverted when I discovered that they are based on weak narrations and fallacius reasonings

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    6. could u pls show me some examples of philosphical, ontological, and moral arguments for islam (after your laptop is fixed)

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    7. Sure, i might do an article on it at one time, keep in mind this is a very complex topic, and require more than just examples , but so far I'll leave you with just one single verse that consider it my favourite
      24:33

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  7. This is a notification to anyone reading it, I'm facing technical laptob problems, any work in progress will be delayed until I fix my laptop. Thanks

    ReplyDelete