Monday, October 24, 2016

Sharif Gabir and the Dunning Kruger effect, Did Muhammad plagiarized Greek embryology?

(English isn't my first language so i might make grammatical mistakes)
Introduction:
Here Sharif gets into more important matters where he attempts to claim that the claims in quranic embryology was already known, now I want to clear up some future confusion here before anyone read the article, just because I’m debunking a polemicist who is trying to show a quranic scientific error doesn’t mean I believe there is scientific miracles in the quran, all what I say is don’t misrepresent the quran, infact I consider the claim  of scientific errors more ludicrous than scientific miracles
There is literally not a single argument here that is correct (although sharif corrected in his video discretion some of his mistakes) now let us beign


@00:31 First he cites Hippocrates and he state that Hippocrates believed semen has contact with female egg to form fetus, I check his source in the description I couldn’t find the source, however I was able to access the closest possible quote from that book through quran error website (http://www.quran-errors.com/the-quran-and-semen-production.html)
“1. 1) All things are governed by law. The sperm of the human male comes from all the humour in the body: it consists of the most potent part of this fluid, which is secreted from the rest. The evidence that it is the most potent part which is secreted is the fact that even though the actual amount we emit in intercourse is very small, we are weakened by its loss. What happens is this: there are veins and nerves which extend from every part of the body to the penis. When as the result of gentle friction these vessels grow warm and become congested, they experience a kind of irritation, and in consequence, a feeling of pleasure and warmth arises over the whole body. 2) Friction on the penis and the movement of the whole man cause the fluid in the body to grow warm; becoming diffuse and agitated by the movement it produces a foam, in the same way as all other fluids produce foam when they are agitated. But in the case of the human being what is secreted as foam is the most potent and the richest part of the humour. This humour is diffused from the brain into the loins and the whole body, but in particular into the spinal marrow: for passages extend into this from the whole body, which enable the humour to pass to and from the spinal marrow. 3) Once the sperm has entered the spinal marrow it passes in its course through the veins along the kidneys (sometimes if there is a lesion of the kidneys, blood is carried along with the sperm). From the kidneys it passes via the testicles into the penis not however by the urinary tract, since it has a passage of its own which is next to the urinary tract.

Those who have nocturnal emissions have them for the following reason; when the humour in the body becomes diffuse and warmed throughout – whether through fatigue or through some other cause - it produces foam. As this is secreted, the man sees visions as though he were having intercourse, for the fluid is precisely the same as that which is emitted in intercourse. However, erotic dreams and the nature and effects of this whole complaint, and why it is a precursor of insanity, is no part of my present subject. So much then for that.

2. 1) The reason that eunuchs do not have intercourse is that their spermal passage is destroyed. This passage lies through the testicles themselves. Moreover, the testicles are connected to the penis by a mass of slender ligaments, which raise and lower the penis. These are cut off in the operation, and that is why eunuchs are impotent. In the case of those whose testicles are crushed, the spermal passage is blocked, for the testicles are damaged and the ligaments, becoming calloused and insensitive as a result of the damage, are no longer able to tighten and relax. 2) Those on the other hand that have had an incision made by the ear can indeed have intercourse and emit sperm, but the amount is small, weak and sterile. For the greater part of the sperm travels from the head past the ears into the spinal marrow; now when the incision has formed a scar, this passage becomes obstructed. In the case of children, their vessels are narrow and blocked, and therefore prevent the passage of sperm, so that the irritation cannot occur as it does in the adult. Hence the humour in the body cannot be agitated sufficiently to secrete sperm. 3) Girls while they are still young do not menstruate for the same reason. But as both boys and girls grow, the vessels which extend in the boy’s case to the penis and in the girl’s to the womb, open out and become wider in the process of growth; a way is opened up through the narrow passages, and the humour, finding sufficient space, can become agitated. That is why when they reach puberty, sperm can flow in the boy and the menses in the girl. Such is my explanation of these facts.

3. 1) The sperm is, as I say, secreted from the whole body - from the hard parts as well as from the soft, and from the total humour. This humour has four forms: blood, bile, water, and phlegm. All four are innate in man, and they are the origin of disease. (I have already discussed these forms, and why both diseases and their resolutions come from them.) I have now dealt with the subject of sperm: its origin, how and why it originates, and in the case of those who do not have sperm, why this is so; and I have dealt with menstruation in girls.

4. 1)In the case of women, it is my contention that when during intercourse the vagina receives friction and the womb is disturbed, an irritation is set up in the womb which produces pleasure and heat in the rest of the body. A woman also emits something from her body, sometimes into the womb, which then becomes moist, and sometimes externally as well, if the womb is open wider than normal. Once intercourse has begun, she experiences pleasure throughout the whole time, until the man ejaculates. If her desire for intercourse is excited, she emits before the man, and for the remainder of the time she does not feel pleasure to the same extent; but if she is not in a state of excitement, then her pleasure terminates along with that of the man. 2) What happens is this: if into boiling water you pour another quantity of water which is cold, the water stops boiling. In the same way, the man’s sperm arriving in the womb extinguishes both the heat and the pleasure of the woman. Both the pleasure and the heat reach their peak simultaneously with the arrival of the sperm in the womb, and then they cease. If, for example, your pour wine on a flame, first of all the flame flares up and increases for a short period when you pour the wine on, then it dies away. In the same way the woman’s heat flares up in response to the man’s sperm, and then dies away.”[1]
I’ve done my research and infact during that era, scientists didn’t believe that fetus is formed from semen contact with female egg, there is not a single mention of the union between seminal fluid and eggs above, how did sharif make such idiotic claim?
However, I shall return to the subject of translations that he will mention later on, I will also deal with al harith bin Kilda and his alleged school that he mentioned later in his video


@01:17
Sharif cites Aristotle, and he state that Aristotle agreed with Hippocrates in regards to the stages of embryology, but disagreed regarding the third stage being bones forming before muscles, he showed a screenshot of a text from page 26 of Aristotle book on animal parts, that reads the following “round about the bones, and attached to them by thin fibrous bands, grow the fleashy parts”
his source can’t be found, instead I found this quote in another link[2]

However, in regards to Galen I couldn’t believe what sharif did so let’s see what he did there
@01:48 he cites Galen and gives the reference to his book on semen and he quotes it as follows “The substance from which the fetus is formed is not merely menstrual blood… the two semens”
I want everyone to keep in mind the above quote, this is how Sharif misquoted Galen so let’s see the full quote

The full quote is as follows
“The substance from which the fetus is formed is not merely menstrual blood, as Aristotle maintained, but menstrual blood plus the two semens[3]

As we can see, he thinks fetus is formed out of the combination of two semen and menstrual blood
Not the combination of male semen and female egg as how sharif stated

This is both a strawman and a misquotation, why did sharif emit the part “as Aristotle maintained, but menstrual blood plus”
However, at 02:15 finally we see this missing quote mentioned as sharif state “as Aristotle maintained, but menstrual blood”
The problem here is not only again this is count as a misquotation, but for non arab speaking audience here sharif mistranslated what Galen said, as we can see he state that It’s a mix of menstrual blood, but sharif state it as “دم متجلط” literally means “blood clot” blood clot is Not a menstrual blood, how did sharif understood Galen menstrual blood in English as blood clot in Arabic?
This is why I don’t take arab ex muslims seriously who say that since they speak Arabic therefore they can be critical of the quran (example the ex muslim in his video promotion in the amazing atheist channel)
Later sharif quote “But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped”
as he state this is the second stage which articulate the formation of the embryo
The problem here is this is Not what the quran describe, if the quran truly copied galled it would have used the word ملأت in meaning of filled and دم  in meaning of being filled with blood and flesh, the problem is, in the second stage, no where does the quran state it’s flesh filled with blood, the key word here is ‘Alaqa which means either something to be hanged or blood clot, nothing in relation to flesh at all, how did sharif associated that with the quran?
This is regarded in galen as the second stage not the third stage
Sharif mixed two stages he misquoted the first sentence to make it as one stage then later took the misquoted part mistranslated it as blood clot when actual it says menstrual blood, then later mentions the stage of unshaped embryo and associated it with mudga which is the third stage in the quran
(you can read Lane lexicon translation of mudgha[4])
Later sharif state that the final fifth stage is the formation of the muscles around the bones, he quotes the following “thous it (nature) cause the flesh to grow on and around the bones”
Now this is not only a strawman this is not regarded as the final stage let us explore now the third stage (I shall correct sharif later on and compare his stages of galen to his actual ones”
“The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form ‘twigs’, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.“[5]
As Galen state, this is the third stage after the second period that talks about the shape of the embryo (however I shall deal with sharif statement that the quran describe embryo as well as unshaped substance)

As we see above Galen describe what is called three ruling parts and he call them more visible than stomach, he mentioned it as the formation of limbs bones, something the quran never talked about, how is that similar to the quran in any way shape or form? Second, mugah would have been similar to the ancient Greek word ἐμβρύειον that describe the flesh of the embryo[6], however mudgah means a chewed like substance, how could mudgah be similar to the word “three ruling parts”?
I will deal with the issue of muscles being formed after the bones later on but let’s compare Galen actual stages to sharif misrepresentation of Galen

Sharif interpretation of Galen stages:
1.       the semen of men and women being nutfa
2.       blood clot
3.       unshaped piece of flesh (mudgah)
4.       bones
5.       flesh coving bones

Galen Actual stages:
1.       The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time

2.       But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen.

3.       The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form ‘twigs’, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches

4.       The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvellous no longer calls the foetusan embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as ananimal now fully formed (Arabic `A new creation')."[7]

Now compare the above stages to sharif stages, how can they be similar?
The stages of embryo by Galen can be summarized as follows
1-it dissect as a formation from the semen that prevails
2-it will be filled with blood and heart and liver will form into an unshaped form
3-three ruling pars and outlines will form to give us limbs bones and twigs
4-the embryo is fully formed

Now let us describe the quranic stages:
1-a mixed dropped liquid of both semen of man attacked to women semen
2-a blood clot like substance will form
3- a chewed like substance will form
4-bones
5-proto muscles (not muscles but proto muscles we will talk about this)

03:13 now we shall discuss the translations of Galen works, were they translated before Muhammad? Sharif state that they have been translated by sergius of reshaina
He states that he took Galen works and other companions with him to Persia
Now here comes the most important and embarrassing part, he mentions that there he made several schools including one called jundishapur or Gundeshapur
However, did this school actually exist? Several scholars have inserted doubt into wither or not this school existed
(the following have been taken from Hamza Tzortiz article regarding Harith bin Kilda)
“An influential mythology has developed around Nestorian activity in the city of Gondeshapur [Jundishapur] in south-western Persia. According to the often-repeated legend, the Nestorians turned Gondeshapur into a major intellectual center by the sixth century, establishing what some enthusiasts have chosen to call a university, where instruction in all of the Greek disciplines could be obtained. It is alleged that Gondeshapur had a medical school, with a curriculum based on Alexandrian textbooks, and a hospital modeled on Byzantine hospitals, which kept the realm supplied with physicians trained in Greek medicine. Of greatest importance, Gondeshapur is held to have played a critical role in the translation of Greek scholarship into Near Eastern languages and, indeed, to have been the single most important channel by which Greek science passed to the Arabs. Recent research has revealed a considerably less dramatic reality. We have no persuasive evidence for the existence of a medical school or a hospital at Gondeshapur, although, there seems to have been a theological school and perhaps an attached infirmary. No doubt Gondeshapur was the scene of serious intellectual endeavour and a certain amount of medical practice —it supplied a string of physicians for the Abbasid court at Baghdad beginning in the eighth century— but it is doubtful that it ever became a major center of medical education or of translating activity. If the story of Gondeshapur is unreliable in its details, the lesson it was meant to teach is nonetheless valid.”[8]

“Jundishapur was certainly a meeting place for Arab, Greek, Syriac and Jewish intellectuals, but there is no evidence that any medical academy existed there. Only in the early ninth century did Arab–Islamic learned medicine take shape.”[9]
The scholars took it far to even doubt harith bin Kilda integrity as a doctor
“In these latter sources the information about al-Harith is fragmentary, references to his profession as a doctor are not consistent and, where they occur, tend to be incidental, and there seems to be little information about the nature of his medicine or detail about his life.”[10]

Bin Kalada was from al-Ta’if, a town which came into contact with Islam only in the 8th year of the Islamic calendar[11]

There has been some scholars I came across who even doubted if harith bin Kilda ever existed, but I don’t consider that to be highly probable

Now what about the translation. Where they actually made before the prophet time? I’ve done my own independent research on this

“the bases of translation were in the capital of the abased era Baghdad from the house of wisdom, and it’s a center where several scholars have gathered and translated several work to Arabic from wide range of non muslim works, the credit was to the Christians being able to master the Greek language and Cyrillic and the main personality was hinyan bin ishaq also known to the west as juhavintus who is a Nestorian Christian  from the south of Iraq from the town of hara, with his students he translated approximately 129 works of Galen”[12]

According to historian Donald Campbell in his book Arabian Medicine and Its Influence on the Middle Ages
“Yuhana Al-Nahawi and Haron Al-Qisis who is also the yaksandari lived at the time of Muhammad and harun gathered  thirty Cyrillic books, and they are a groups of works associated to Greek, these are called benedict haroun, and they were translated to Arabic in the year 638 A.D by the Syrian jew masir juahiri, and they were aimed at translating the first works of Greek medicine to Arabic[13]

So far we have seen that there have been evidence presented that the Greek translations could not have possibly reached Muhammad, we also need to cap with the fact that Muhammad can’t read or write so how could he read these works

I shall deal now with the issue of bones forming before the flesh, now let us examine the verse in question
“We (God) created man from a quintessence of clay. We then placed him as a nutfah (drop) in a place of settlement, firmly fixed, then We made the drop into an 'alaqah (leech-like structure), and then We changed the 'alaqah into a mudghah (chewed-like substance), then We made out of that mudghah, 'izsm (skeleton, bones), then (we shall discuss what then means here) We clothed the bones with labm (muscles, flesh), then We caused him to grow and come into being and attain the definitive (human) form. So, blessed be God, the best to create."
The development of bones here is described as osteogensis
During embryogenesis, the dermomyotome and/or myotome in the somites contain the myogenic progenitor cells that will evolve into the prospective skeletal muscle[14]
These are called proto muscles, or tissues formed before the actual development of the actual skeletal muscles, these are need to be distinct from regular muscles that are referred as laham here or flesh

During the second month the Ossification (bone formation) begins[15]

Here is a comprehensive breakdown of stages from start to muscle formation
“Week 4

At the beginning of the 4th week, the somites (4) are well formed and the neural tube is also formed but it is opened at the rostral and caudal neuropores (p. 81, fig. 5.8).
Upper limb buds become recognizable during week 4 (day 26 or 27) and the lower limb buds become present by the end of week 4 (day 28; p. 84, fig. 5.12).  The patterning of the limb development is regulated by Homeobox-containing (Hox) genes.
The upper limb buds appear low on the embryo due to the dominant development of the head and neck.
The upper limb buds form opposite the caudal cervical segments and lower limb buds form opposite the lumbar and upper sacral segments.
Limb bud (p. 366, fig. 16-2)

Each limb bud consists of a mass of mesenchyme derived from the somatic mesoderm, covered by a layer of ectoderm. At the tip of each limb bud, ectodermal cells form an apical ectodermal ridge, which promotes growth and development of the limbs in the proximo-distal axis .  Fibroblast growth factors and T-box genes (tbx-4 and tbx-5) from the apical ectodermal ridge activate the mesenchymal cells at the posterior margin of the limb bud (the zone of polarizing activity).  This causes expression of the Sonic Hedgehog gene, which controls the patterning of the limb along the anterior-posterior axis.  Expression of Wnt7 from the dorsal epidermis of the limb bud and engrailed-1 (EN-1) from the ventral aspect specifies the dorsal-ventral axis

Week 5

Bones appear during week 5 as mesenchymal condensations in the limb buds (p. 371, fig. 16-7)
Upper limbs show regional differentiation with developing hand plates (p. 367, fig. 16-3).
Week 6 (p. 354, fig. 14-14; p. 371, fig. 16-7)

Mesenchymal models of the bones in the limbs undergo chondrification to form hyaline cartilage.
The clavicle develops by intramembranous ossification and later develops articular cartilages.
The cartilage models form sooner in the upper limb than in the lower limb and in a proximodistal sequence.
Further differentiation of the limb buds during week 6 (p. 367, fig. 16-3):

Identifiable elbow and wrists regions are formed.
Hand plates develop ridges, called digital rays and these will become the future thumb and fingers. At the tip of each digital ray is a portion of the apical ectodermal ridge. It induces development of the mesenchyme into the primordia of bones. Areas between the rays contain loose mesenchyme.
Development of the lower limb buds is always slower by a few days.
Week 7

Loose mesenchyme between the digital rays break down and notches appear between the digital rays in the hand plates.
Digital rays form in the foot plate.
Ossification in the long bones begin by the end of the embryonic period (week 7). The primary centers are in the diaphyses (p. 343, fig. 14-5).
 Limb muscles are formed by myogenic precursor cells that migrate into the limb buds and differentiate into myoblasts.  They are derived from the dorsolateral muscle-forming region of the somites, an area which expresses the muscle-specific genes MyoD and myf-5.  Expression of  MyoD results from the influence of activating Wnt proteins and inhibitory BMP-4 protein.  The myoblasts form a muscle mass which divides into a dorsal (extensor) and ventral (flexor) compartments.”[16]
(from Indiana state univercity)

So as we can see, bones are formed alongside proto muscles tissues, these proto muscles then during the 7th week evolve into fully developed limbs muscles


Now let us deal with the final accusation sharif made against Keith L. Moor

Sharif state at 06:15 that Keith L. Moor state in a book he associated it to him titled “A history of embryology” that quran merely echoes or reflect previous claims of embryology

Now this is a disaster, Keith Moore didn’t auther such book, sharif falsely attributed this book to Keith Moore, I looked up this book everywhere and couldn’t find it, the closest book we have to this is A History of Embryology (1959), by Joseph Needham


In conlcustion this is another embaressing video that shows how lackluster sharif is in critical thinking and scientific learning, I’m not claiming this is a scientific miracle, but again don’t strawman the quran




[1] Hippocrates, The Hippocratic Treatises, "On Generation," "On the Nature of the Child," "Diseases IV", Translated by Walter de Cruyter, 1981, pp. 1-2.
[2] https://books.google.iq/books?id=MLbmAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1020&lpg=PA1020&dq=round+about+the+bones,+and+attached+to+them+by+thin+fibrous+bands,+grow+the+fleshy+parts&source=bl&ots=kjRKj0Ekht&sig=u7thYdVA0IQQ1r7XIzDKqZAnFEI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV2vXPzvHPAhVGXCwKHRquBukQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=round%20about%20the%20bones%2C%20and%20attached%20to%20them%20by%20thin%20fibrous%20bands%2C%20grow%20the%20fleshy%20parts&f=false
[3] Galen - On Semen Page.5
[4] An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 5, page 2134
[5] Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) pages 92-95.
[6] Greek-English Lexicon. 7th Edition. Harper and Brothers. 1883, page 460.
[7] Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek textwith English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10, pp. 92-95
[8] David C. Lindberg. The Beginnings of Western Science. University Of Chicago Press. 1992, pages, 164-165
[9] Roy Porter. The Greatest Benefit to Mankind: A Medical History of Humanity. Fontana Press.1999, page,94.
[10] The Islamic World: From Classic to Modern Times. Edited, C. E. Bosworth et al. Darwin. 1991, page 129
[11] This chapter is a Meccan which means that the verses were revealed before the migration (hijrah) to Medina. The conquest of Ta’if occurred after hijrah. The Qur’an: A New Translation. Oxford University Press. 2005, page 215
[12] The Greatest Benefit to Mankind: A Medical History of Humanity (The Norton History of Science) by roy poter, page.95
[13] Arabian Medicine and Its Influence on the Middle Ages by Donald Campbell page.47
[14] Ito, Yoshiaki. "A Systems Approach and Skeletal Myogenesis". International Journal of Genomics. Hindawi Publishing Organization
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijg/2012/759407/
[15] https://web.archive.org/web/20120301011824/http://www.nsbri.org/HumanPhysSpace/focus6/student1.html
[16] http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/duong/EMBRYOL.html

21 comments:

  1. So, you don't see any scientific error in the Quran's embryology?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, are you saying there is an error?

      Delete
    2. Nope. I just wanted to see your stance on the subject. Maybe you can do a detailed article about the subject using different sources?

      Also, I know that this is out of topic, but as a Quarnist, as there any indications of a minimum value for a stolen item for the theft punishment? Or age? Because if there wasn't, wouldn't that mean that even if a child stole something like an Apple or a candy he might get his hand cut.

      Delete
    3. interesting, maybe i will do in the future, although i'm planning to close this blog

      although prophet muhammad did said in a hadith if fatima the daughter of muhammad stole something i will cut of her hands

      but further research requires

      Delete
    4. Why are you planning to close it if I may ask? Because I like reading on both sides, and even though your blog doesn't post articles as much as others, it's still one of the best and most interesting blogs on the Muslim traditional side.


      Well, I don't believe in traditional Islam, and I know that Hadith, but ain't there other Hadiths or reports from the Sahaba that say that only adults who know of the sin and are mentally stable can be punished for their sins?

      Delete
    5. I'm not removing the posts, I'm closing the blogging meaning I'm planning not to post again, I'm closing it for many reasons, ones of them is that I don't like to deal with polimicist again as I'm pursuing academic currier now

      Delete
    6. But don't worry this is not gonna happen soon

      Delete
  2. In regards to science; Does not evolution debunk the whole creation story and thus islam as well?
    Why still waste time?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why are you asking this despite knowing the answer? We all know HOW. Islamic creation story tells us that we are all children of Adam&Eve,the first human couple. However today modern biology says that we are just the products of 7 billion years of evolution and we came from primats,there was no first couple and we didnt come from them.

      So that is how it debunks creation story.

      Delete
    2. Because I'm being skeptical, how do you know it refute and debunk islam? You do realize god is omnipotent right?
      And how is saying being the product of 7 billion years debunk adam and Eve?
      No evolution doesn't describe how life became here, evolution describe how we changed during years, what you describe is called biogenesis not evolution

      Delete
    3. Im assuming ur pretending not to understand what i say. Im not talking about how life began so no its not about biogenesis,its about human evolution.


      Im just saying that we humans did not come from a first human couple as the religious books say,we evolved from primats. That's what 21th science says with the overwhelming evidence.

      Delete
    4. And yous still didn't answer, how does that debunk islam ?

      Delete
    5. "how does that debunk islam ?"

      I already gave the answer in the prev. message but i see you have a reading comprehension problem.

      Im not gonna waste my time with you anymore.

      Bye

      Delete
    6. No, it's called skeptical, questioning every claim is not unhealthy , also you never replied to the concept of God being omnipotent in regards to this issue, there are also many factures to the story that you didn't mention


      So how about you actually have logical conversation with me instead of insulting and mocking my personality?

      Delete
    7. ""how about you actually have logical conversation with me"

      Im trying my best to do that with patient but i always fail for some reason..


      I dont know how clearer i can say this. Again read my post on Adam&Eve story and human evolution. Im not gonna repeat it

      And this is not about God being omnipotent,im not suggesting evolution and his omnipotence directly conflict each other. I never said that. Im just talking about particularly human evolution.You are literally strawmaning me right now.

      Delete
    8. Patience? You started it
      You fail because you couldn't factures my questions you ignore several parts of my rebuttal and didn't care to reply to it

      Yes it's about god being omnipotent
      If he was omnipotent then he can do anything and that include a story that doesn't coexist (allegadly) with evolution, so if he can do anything why can't he play tricks with you or lie to you ?
      Those how could that harm his divinity ?
      I didn't say you claim it conflict with his omnipotence, I never claimed you said that so no I didn't strawman you

      So again the god of islam is omnipotent, he can do anything and put anything in his book, even if the quran is filled with errors this won't harm god divinity duo to the fact that he is omnipotent, so evolution doesn't disprove islam or Allah for that matter


      Also there are many interpretation to both evolution and the story of adam and Eve
      There are people who actually belive evolution means we evolved on a rock from bacteria primate
      And others belive we evolved from alien life form, others think we evolved from commit on earth, Adam and Eve have as much theory and interpretation around it as evolution has

      Delete
    9. So ur saying God wrote a scientificially incorrect story in his divine book deliberately? And then put evidence for evolution on the earth to deceive us? As a result,if we dont believe in his book bcs its obviously wrong,then he gets mad and burn us eternally for believing the truth? God cant be a liar,he is supposed to be maximally perfect.


      ""so evolution doesn't disprove islam or Allah for that matter "


      Yes it does. If the quran is wrong ,islam is wrong.


      What kind of nonsense is that


      Delete
    10. No, I'm saying using scientific errors doesn't prove jack shit, god of islam or any omnipotent god can't be disproved by mere scientific means , so you can't use scientific means to refute such god because that god can do anything

      Can't be a liar? Why? If he is omnipotent which literally mean he can do anything why not lie? Perfection means being able to do anything


      No it doesn't, because again science doesn't disprove an omnipotent god, also interpretation matters, you can't brush interpretation out of thin air

      This is not nonsense , this is critical thinking

      You are saying god can do anything but he can't lie, that is the nonsense, if he can do anything, why can't he lie ?

      Delete
  3. A great article. I recommend the following lecture its excellent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heitI0S9BCo

    ReplyDelete