Introduction:
I have Finally decided to return to the masked Arab, and will not have an official (final reply), this applies to Sharif Gabri and any other policies, in this article we will tackle his video “7 reasons why I left Islam” while most of them are the same old ramblings, nevertheless it’s one of the most frequent and asked videos to debunk, next one will probably be sharif gabir
I made the decision to make this several part series because the first allegation already made my article cluttered with many footnotes and commentary, next article will address the alleged contradictions, and if I had enough space left depending on the sources I provide, it might not turn into a 7 part series
Blogger is a really bad platform, and it's messing up my article format, I might ditch it for WordPress in the future after I create my youtube channel
However, Let Us proceed
Issue #1:
@02:44 the Masked Arab Cites 21:30 in preparation for his supposed rebuttal to the scientific claim that The Quran foretold the Big Bang, His mean argument that Earth was Not Formed before the big bang and could not have possibly existed before it, he waste no time in citing Tafsirs or any scholarly opinion or let alone your typical viral videos of scholars explaining it shared by MEMRI TV, never the less let’s see what the verse is all about
While he Cites several Quranic verses where it says the Quran is clear, he makes one last ditch effort when a Muslim cite 3:7, he mentioned Tafsir Tanwir Al-Miqbas where it says that what the verse meant by allegorical here is that these allegorical verses are abrogated, the following is the Full Text of his video description describing how he views 3:7
“(Quran 5:15, 6:55, 6:114, 11:1, 16:103, 22:16, 41:3)
Verse where Quran says some verses are allegorical (3:7)
The allegory refers to verses where there are only letters & abrogated verses
“The allegory refers to verses where there are only letters & abrogated verses”
This is false, the two parts the letters and abrogated are in no way means they are both the same interpretation, this is the full text of the Tafsir he used:
(He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture) who sent you Gabriel with the Scripture (wherein are clear revelations) expositing the lawful and unlawful which are not abrogated and which are acted upon. (They are the substance of the Book) they are the foundation of the Book as they are the leading theme in each book. They are all acted upon. An example of this is the saying of Allah: (Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you…) [6:151]. (And others (which are) allegorical) vague in their meanings to the Jews, like the use of the letters of the alphabet according to their numerical value (hisab al-Jumal) in such instances as Alif. Lam. Mim, Alif. Lam. Mim. Sad, Alif. Lam Mim. Ra; and Alif. Lam. Ra; it is also said that (others (which are) allegorical) means: other verses that are abrogated and no longer acted upon. (But those) the Jews Ka'b Ibn al-Ashraf, Huyayy Ibn Akhtab and Judayy Ibn Akhtab (in whose hearts is doubt) scepticism, opposition and deviance from guidance (pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking) in the Qur'an ((to cause) dissension) pursuing disbelief, ascribing partners to Allah, and holding fast to the error they are in (by seeking to explain it) to determine the future of this nation so that dominion reverts back to them. (None knoweth its explanation) the future of this nation (save Allah). Here Allah interrupts His speech and then resumes it by saying: (And those who are of sound instruction) those who have a sound grasp of the knowledge of the Torah: 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his fellow companions (say: We believe therein) in the Qur'an; (the whole is from our Lord) Allah has revealed both those verses which are clear and those which are ambiguous; (but only men of understanding) who have sound minds such as 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his fellow companions (really heed) take admonition from the simile of the Qur'an..”[1]
Interestingly one of the many hadiths mentioning this verse is a hadith from Sahih Bukhari
“Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) recited the Verse:-- "It is He who has sent down to you the Book. In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundation of the Book, others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the Truth ). follow thereof that is not entirely clear seeking affliction and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings but Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it (i.e. in the Qur'an) the whole of it (i.e. its clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding." (3.7) Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "If you see those who follow thereof that is not entirely clear, then they are those whom Allah has named [as having deviation (from the Truth)] 'So beware of them."”[2]
So apparently the prophet interpreted it based on the first interpretation laid down by the tafsir the masked Arab cited, where it refers to the Vagueness of the verses instead of the abrogation, why did ‘t the masked Arab notice this hadith? It will expel all his nonsense are refute it, how did he hide this hadith from his Gullible audience is not surprising to me
“الكلام المتشابه
جاء في سورة آل عمران 3: 7 ((فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا))[آل عمران:7].
اعترف القرآن أن به آيات محكمات لا تقبل الصرف عن ظاهرها ولا الذهاب في محتملاتها مذاهب شتى. كما قال إن به آيات متشابهات لا يتضح معناها لأنها مجملة أو غير موافقة للظاهر إلا بتدقيق الفكر، وما يعلم تأويلها إلا الله، وأن على أشد الناس رسوخاً في العلم أن يسلّموا بها تسليماً أعمى."”[3]
Translation:
The allegorical speech:
It was mentioned in Sura ‘Imran 3:7 { He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.} The Quran acknowledges that it has basic funidmantl words that require no alteration in meaning, like it also says that it has allegorical words in which meaning is not clear and understood because it’s shortened or unconventional to regular interpretation, and no one knows it’s interpretation except God
Let us now observe even more the interpretation of one if the grand scholars in Islamic History, Ibn Kathir
“يخبر تعالى أن في القرآن آيات محكمات هن أم الكتاب، أي: بينات واضحات الدلالة، لا التباس فيها على أحد من الناس، ومنه آيات أخر فيها اشتباه في الدلالة على كثير من الناس أو بعضهم، فمن ردّ ما اشتبه عليه إلى الواضح منه، وحكم محكمه على متشابهه عنده، فقد اهتدى. ومن عكس انعكس ؛ ولهذا قال تعالى: { هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ } أي: أصله الذي يرجع إليه عند الاشتباه { وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ } أي: تحتمل دلالتها موافقة المحكم، وقد تحتمل شيئًا آخر من حيث اللفظ والتركيب ، لا من حيث المراد ...
{ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ } أي: ضلال وخروج عن الحق إلى الباطل { فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ } أي: إنما يأخذون منه بالمتشابه الذي يمكنهم أن يحرّفوه إلى مقاصدهم الفاسدة”[4]
Translation:
God says in the Quran that there are fundamental verses meaning clear and non controversial and obvious to readers, and other verses have allegorical meaning to on and not clear to most people, so some will respond to the allegorical and proclaim what they understood from it and judge it as allegorical, those have been guided, and vice verse, and for that god said { He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical} meaning it meaning return, and as allegorical { others are allegorical} meaning it’s clear meaning depends on one judgment and depends on another according to spelling and arrangement, not by what it aims to state, { But those in whose hearts is perversity} meaning deviation from the right path, { follow the part thereof that is allegorical} meaning that they will seak the allegorical parts so they can rearrange them and reinterpret them to their sick and corrupt aims
I guess the last part here is referring to the masked Arab and his sick and corrupt aims
Continuing
“قسم الله تبارك وتعالى القرآن الكريم إلى قسمين : محكم ومتشابه ، والمراد بالمحكم هنا الواضح البين الذي لا يخفى على أحدٍ معناه مثل السماء والأرض والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وما أشبهها ، هذا محكم ؛ لأنه لا اشتباه في معناه، وأما المتشابهات فهي الآيات التي يشتبه معناها ويخفى على أكثر الناس ولا يعرفها إلا الراسخون في العلم”[5]
Translation:
God separated the Quran into two branches: the Muhkam fundamental meaning and the allegorical, and what it means fundamental is that this meaning is obvious and not hidden like heavens and earth and stars and mountains and trees and animals and so on, and that is fundamental, because there is no issue in determining it’s meaning, but the allegorical has verses with hidden meaning and is hidden from most people except for the people with deep knowledge
This is dishonesty at it most, this is an unbelievable lie the masked Arab came up with, a quick look at the tafsir it gives us 2 Possible separated interpretations, one regards allegorical to vagueness of the words and letters, other refers to abrogation
Not both at the same time, the masked Arab combined this two intpereation into one to deceive his audience
The more we dive in the harder it gets for the masked Arab case, keep in mind I found so many sources that match all these citations I’m giving but I won’t cite all of them because they are by hundreds, and it won’t be enough to cite them all here
So much so for it meaning abrogation, to be fair in my research I did come across one source other than his tafsir that strickly mentions allegorical here as abrogation, but that is completely overwhelmed by the majority of scholarly sources that cite the hadith mentioned above from the prophet as proclamation of it meaning allegorical rather than abrogation
Issue #2:
Nevertheless, let’s see further scholarly opinion regarding this verse
Quran 21:30
“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
So his main objection that earth was created before the big bang according to this verse, but how? Where does this verse say that the earth was created by the big bang?, it simply says that the heavens and the earth were joined together and split asunder (what ever it means heaven or earth here) we shall explore what Major scholars say regarding this hadith, but so far I don’t see his argument, he didn’t even drove a conclusion, I assume he was stating that this is a scientific error
Interestingly when we explore Tafsirs we see different pictures as to what it meant here by heaven and earth
Starting with the most major one:
“ثم اختلف أهل التأويل فـي معنى وصف الله السموات والأرض بـالرتق، وكيف كان الرتق، وبأيّ معنى فتق؟ فقال بعضهم: عَنَى بذلك أن السموات والأرض كانتا ملتصقتـين ففصل الله بـينهما بـالهواء. ذكر من قال ذلك:
حدثنـي علـيّ، قال: ثنا أبو صالـح، قال: ثنـي معاوية، عن علـيّ، عن ابن عبـاس، قوله: { أوَ لَـمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أنَّ السَمَوَاتِ والأرْضَ كانَتا رَتْقا } يقول: ملتصقتـين.”
Translation:
The People of interpretations differ in regards what it meant here by “separated” here some said: “the heavens and earth were attached and they were separated by air:
Ali Told me, from Abu Salih, from Mu’awia, from Ali, From Ibn Abbas, said: { Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity} meaning joined together”[6]
Continuing the same interpretation
“حدثنـي مـحمد بن سعد، قال: ثنـي أبـي، قال: ثنـي عمي، قال: ثنـي أبـي، عن أبـيه، عن ابن عبـاس، قوله: { أوَ لَـمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أنَّ السَّمَوَاتِ والأرْضَ كانَتا رتْقا فَفَتَقْناهما... } الآية، يقول: كانتا ملتصقتـين، فرفع السماء ووضع الأرض.”[7]
Translation:
Muhammad Bin Sa’ad Told me, from my father, from my uncle, from my father, from his father, from ibn Abbas { Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them} the verse said: joined then god left the heaven and placed earth
Note Here says (placed earth) meaning he didn’t spate them
Now Let’s Check a Completely different Interpretation
“وقال آخرون: بل معنى ذلك أن السموات كانت مرتتقة طبقة، ففتقها الله فجعلها سبع سموات. وكذلك الأرض كانت كذلك مرتتقة، ففتقها فجعلها سبع أرضين ذكر من قال ذلك:”[8]
Translation:
And others said, No indeed this means it was a joint layer so god separated them and made them 7 layers of heavens, and so he did to earth, examples of those who said:”
Ok, so here we entered the 7 heavens interpretation, something completely different from the interpretation that the masked Arab want you to know, it has nothing to do with big bang at all here, so much for a scientific error
“دثنـي مـحمد بن عمرو، قال: ثنا أبو عاصم، قال: ثنا عيسى، وحدثنـي الـحارث، قال: ثنا الـحسن، قال: ثنا ورقاء جميعا، عن ابن أبـي نـجيح، عن مـجاهد، فـي قول الله تبـارك وتعالـى: { رَتْقا فَفَتَقْناهُما } من الأرض ستّ أرضين معها فتلك سبع أرضين معها، ومن السماء ستّ سموات معها فتلك سبع سموات معها. قال: ولـم تكن الأرض والسماء متـماسَّتـين.”[9]
Translation:
Muhammad bin Umro said: Abu Asim said: Isa told us: Harith Told us Hasan Told us Hasan Told us from Abu najih from mujahid in the verse { entity and We separated them} From Earth 6 earths (layers) with it seven earths, and from heaven six layers with it seven heavens, and the heaven and the earth were not In contact with each other
Note the Bold Text part, it says the heaven and earth were not in contact with one another, this clearly doesn’t refer to big bang
“حدثنا ابن عبد الأعلـى، قال: ثنا مـحمد بن ثور، عن معمر، عن ابن أبـي نـجيح، عن مـجاهد: { رَتْقا فَفَتَقْناهُما } قال: فتقهنّ سبع سموات بعضهنّ فوق بعض، وسبع أرضين بعضهنّ تـحت بعض.”[10]
Translation:
Ibn abid Al-A’la told us said: from Muhammad bin Thor told us from mu’amar from Abi najih, from mujahid { entity and We separated them} said: the seven heavens were joined one on top another, and the earth one underneath another
Even More interestingly, there seams to be a hint of an early development of earth here by another interpretation
“حدثنا هناد، قال: ثنا أبو الأحوص، عن سماك، عن عكرمة: { أوَ لَـمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أنَّ السَّمَوَاتِ والأرْضَ كانَتا رَتْقا فَفَتَقْناهُما } قال: كانتا رتقا لا يخرج منهما شيء، ففتق السماء بـالـمطر وفتق الأرض بـالنبـات. قال: وهو قوله:
Translation:
Hunad told us, from Abu Al-Ahwas from Samak from ‘ukrama { Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them} said: they were dray no water comes out of it, so God separated the sky to bring water and brought plant life to earth, this is evident by Quran 86:11-12
{ By the sky which returns [rain], And [by] the earth which cracks open,}
And the final nail in the coffin, for Desperate TMA fans who will say that there is no evidence for such interpretation that this is referring to rain overlapping earth, scholars have pointed out that the Very same verse contain the evidence
“حدثنـي يونس، قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب، قال: قال ابن زيد فـي قوله: { أوَ لَـمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أن السَّمَوَاتِ والأرْضَ كانَتا رَتْقا فَفَتَقْناهُما } قال: كانت السموات رتقا لا ينزل منها مطر، وكانت الأرض رتقا لا يخرج منها نبـات، ففتقهما الله، فأنزل مطر السماء، وشقّ الأرض فأخرج نبـاتها. وقرأ: { فَفَتَقْناهُما وَجَعَلْنا مِنَ الماء كلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيّ أفَلا يُؤْمِنُونَ }.”[12]
Translation:
Yunis Told me, Ibn Wahab told me, Ibn said told me from the verse { Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them} said: the heavens were dry no rain falls, and the earth had no plant life, so God brought rain from the heavens and cracked earth, evident by the same verse { and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
Again let’s read the full verse
21:30
“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
If this was the big bang, why would god mention water in this verse at the same time?
In fact the rest of the chapter regarding this verse, al-Tabari spends time and cite narration after narration that explains the meanings and the interpretations behind bringing rain down to earth from the heaven, so it seems the most probable interpretation is that this is referring to heaven bringing rain to bring life on earth
Now Forget Tafsir Al-Tabari
Let us look at Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari
“قرىء: { أَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ } بغير واو. و { رَتْقاً } بفتح التاء، وكلاهما في معنى المفعول، كالخلق والنقض، أي: كانتا مرتوقتين. فإن قلت: الرتق صالح أن يقع موقع مرتوقتين لأنه مصدر، فما بال الرتق؟ قلت: هو على تقرير موصوف، أي: كانتا شيئاً رتقاً ومعنى ذلك: أن السماء كانت لاصقة بالأرض لا فضاء بينهما. أو كانت السموات متلاصقات، وكذلك الأرضون لا فرج بينها ففتقها الله وفرّج بينها. وقيل: ففتقناها بالمطر والنبات”[13]
Translation:
The reader { Have those who disbelieved not considered) and { joined entity} both are grammatically regarded as Object, like creation and corruption, meaning they were joined, so if I said the union was good then it’s because it’s the source so what it means by Unity here? Said: it’s based on a description, meaning they were two objects to be separation which means the heavens were joined with earth with no space between them, Or that the heavens were joined together, and so does earth, and it was said that they were inforced with Rain and plant
So another Tafsir that confirm the Rain plant theory
Tafsir Ibn Kathir Also Confirm it
“Have not those who disbelieve known) means, those who deny His Divine nature and worship others instead of Him, do they not realize that Allah is the One Who is Independent in His powers of creation and is running the affairs of all things with absolute power So how can it be appropriate to worship anything else beside Him or to associate others in worship with Him Do they not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, i.e., in the beginning, they were all one piece, attached to one another and piled up on top of one another, then He separated them from one another, and made the heavens seven and the earth seven, placing the air between the earth and the lowest heaven. Then He caused rain to fall from the sky and vegetation to grow from the earth”[14]
Let us See Tafsir Al-Qurtubi regarding this Aya gives us one of the interpretations
“ال ابن عباس والحسن وعطاء والضحاك وقتادة: يعني أنها كانت شيئا واحدا ملتزقتين ففصل الله بينهما بالهواء. وكذلك قال كعب: خلق الله السماوات والأرض بعضها على بعض ثم خلق ريحا بوسطها ففتحها بها ، وجعل السماوات سبعا والأرضين سبعا. وقول ثان قاله مجاهد والسدي وأبو صالح: كانت السماوات مؤتلفة طبقة واحدة ففتقها فجعلها سبع سماوات”[15]
Translation:
Ibn Abbas and Hassan and ‘ataand Qutada said: meaning that it was one thing then god separated them with air, and so did ka’ab said: God created heavens and earth one on top another, then he created wind and with it he separated them and made heavens seven and earth seven, Mathur said that mujahid and sudi and Abu Salih said: it was one layer heaven so he separated them and made it seven layers
“وابن عباس أيضا فيما ذكر المهدوي: إن السماوات كانت رتقا لا تمطر ، والأرض كانت رتقا لا تنبت ، ففتق السماء بالمطر ، والأرض بالنبات”[16]
Translation:
Ibn Abbas said in Al-Mahduwi words: the heavens were joined dray doesn’t rain, and earth have no plants, so god separated them and created rain and plants
Now, What Does Lisan Al Arab say Regarding this verse? The most authentic widely known Arabic to Arabic dictionary?
“رتق : الرتق : ضد الفتق . ابن سيده : الرتق إلحام الفتق وإصلاحه . رتقه يرتقه ويرتقه رتقا فارتتق أي التأم . يقال : رتقنا فتقهم حتى ارتتق ، والرتق : المرتوق . وفي التنزيل : أولم ير الذين كفروا أن السماوات والأرض كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما قال بعض المفسرين : كانت السماوات رتقا لا ينزل منها رجع ، وكانت الأرض رتقا ليس فيها صدع ففتقهما الله تعالى بالماء والنبات رزقا للعباد”[17]
Translation:
Rataq: opposite of Fatiq, ibn Sida said : ratiq is connection of fatiq…….in Quran Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them, some Mufasirin said, that sky was join and dray and had no rain comes out from it, and earth was joined with no plant life, so god separated them and made water comes out and plant grow, for his slaves
This is the most authentic Arabic to Arabic dictionary, how much will that be convincing?
Ibn Kathir also stated:
“وقال: أولم ير الذين كفروا أن السماوات والأرض كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما وجعلنا من الماء كل شيء حي أفلا يؤمنون [ الأنبياء: 30 ]. أي فصلنا ما بين السماء والأرض حتى هبت الرياح ، ونزلت الأمطار ، وجرت العيون والأنهار ، وانتعش الحيوان”[18]
And said: { Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe} meaning we separated what is between heaven and earth until wind blows and rain fell and rivers go, and animals became full
So far we have seen multiple tafsirs, but I haven’t cited all of the sources I found, like tahrir al tanwir
But what makes it so interesting is that there is actually more than these 2 interpretations, there is actually 5 interpretations of this verse this shall put the final nail in the coffin of desperate TMA fans, the author even goes so far and explain which one is the most probable one and the most accepted:
“الأول أن معنى كانتا رتقا أي: كانت السماوات والأرض متلاصقة بعضها مع بعض ، ففتقها الله وفصل بين السماوات والأرض ، فرفع السماء إلى مكانها ، وأقر الأرض في مكانها ، وفصل بينهما بالهواء الذي بينهما كما ترى.
القول الثاني: أن السماوات السبع كانت رتقا ، أي: متلاصقة بعضها ببعض ، ففتقها الله وجعلها سبع سماوات ، كل اثنتين منها بينهما فصل ، والأرضون كذلك كانت رتقا ففتقها ، وجعلها سبعا بعضها منفصل عن بعض.
القول الثالث: أن معنى كانتا رتقا أن السماء كانت لا ينزل منها مطر ، والأرض كانت لا ينبت فيها نبات ، ففتق الله السماء بالمطر ، والأرض بالنبات.
القول الرابع: كانتا رتقا أي: في ظلمة لا يرى من شدتها شيء ، ففتقهما الله بالنور. وهذا القول في الحقيقة يرجع إلى القول الأول والثاني.
الخامس: - وهو أبعدها لظهور سقوطه - أن الرتق يراد به العدم ، والفتق يراد به الإيجاد ، أي: كانتا عدما فأوجدناهما. وهذا القول كما ترى.
فإذا عرفت أقوال أهل العلم في هذه الآية ، فاعلم أن القول الثالث منها - وهو كونهما كانتا رتقا بمعنى أن السماء لا ينزل منها مطر ، والأرض لا تنبت شيئا ، ففتق الله السماء بالمطر ، والأرض بالنبات - قد دلت عليه قرائن من كتاب الله تعالى :
الأولى: أن قوله تعالى: أولم ير الذين كفروا أن [ 21 ] يدل على أنهم رأوا ذلك ؛ لأن الأظهر في " رأى " أنها بصرية ، والذي يرونه بأبصارهم هو أن السماء تكون لا ينزل منها مطر ، والأرض ميتة هامدة لا نبات فيها ، فيشاهدون بأبصارهم إنزال الله المطر وإنباته به أنواع النبات.
القرينة الثانية: أنه أتبع ذلك بقوله: وجعلنا من الماء كل شيء حي أفلا يؤمنون [ 21 ]. والظاهر اتصال هذا الكلام بما قبله ، أي: وجعلنا من الماء الذي أنزلناه بفتقنا السماء ، وأنبتنا به أنواع النبات بفتقنا الأرض - كل شيء حي.
القرينة الثالثة : أن هذا المعنى جاء موضحا في آيات أخر من كتاب الله ؛ كقوله تعالى : والسماء ذات الرجع والأرض ذات الصدع [ 86 \ 12 ] لأن المراد بالرجع نزول المطر منها تارة بعد أخرى ، والمراد بالصدع انشقاق الأرض عن النبات ، وكقوله تعالى : فلينظر الإنسان إلى طعامه أنا صببنا الماء صبا ثم شققنا الأرض شقا الآية
واختار هذا القول ابن جرير ، وابن عطية ، وغيرهما ؛ للقرائن التي ذكرنا. ويؤيد ذلك كثرة ورود الاستدلال بإنزال المطر ، وإنبات النبات في القرآن العظيم على كمال قدرة الله تعالى
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وأقرب الأقوال في ذلك هو ما ذكرنا دلالة القرائن القرآنية عليه ، وقد قال فيه الفخر الرازي في تفسيره: ورجحوا هذا الوجه على سائر الوجوه بقوله بعد ذلك: وجعلنا من الماء كل شيء. ”[19]
Translation:
“The first: Joined meaning that heaven and earth were joined together so god separated them and left heaven up and kept earth down and separated them with air
The second: the seven heavens were joined, so god separated them and made them 7 separate heavens, each pair is separated, and so does earth
The Third: meaning they had no rain falling and earth had no plant life so god brought rain to heaven, and brought plant life to earth
The Forth: meaning they were dark, nothing is seen from its darkness, so God brought to light and this actually refers to the first and second interpretation
The Fifth: they were nothing, meaning they were at first void of nothing so god made it into something
If you would know clearly the opinion of the school of interpretation, know this is that the third interpretation is the most accepted one, and it’s based on three of evidence from the Quran:
The first is the people of disbelief saw it, meaning this was a display in front of them, meaning they saw that the sky had no rain falling, and the earth had no plant life, dead, so God brought rain and so behold plant life of different kinds came
The second is that it was followed by words {and from water we made everything alive} and apparent is that this is connected to the start of the verse meaning: and from the water, we brought down we made everything alive from plant life on earth
The third is that this is mentioned from other Quranic verses { By the sky which returns [rain], And [by] the earth which cracks open,} Quran 86:11-12, because what it meant here is the fall of rain time after time, and what meant by crack is earth bringing plant like the verse { Then let, mankind look at his food -, How We poured down water in torrents, Then We broke open the earth, splitting [it into sprouts],} Quran 80:24-26
And Ibn Jarir and Ibn ‘Atia choose this interpretation among many scholars based on Quranic evidence we brought, and majority approved by the meaning of rainfall and plant growth on earth as evidence of God’s perfection
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And the closest words to this is as we explained the Quranic evidence for it and Alfakir already mentioned it in his Tafsir: and they chose this meaning overall meaning based on the following words from the verse {and from the water we made everything alive}”
This doesn’t get more clear, the majority of the scholars as we saw approve of the third interpretation, that this is referring to the rain falling and bringing plant life on earth, how could TMA miss this? Either he is so ignorant regarding how to do a research, or so dishonest to deceive his gullible fans, nevertheless, what I just showed from many scholars and many Ulama will put it clear, the third interpretation is the most accepted, even Al-Shankanti Agrees, of course, I can cite so many more, as I found over 50 tafsirs acknowledge the third interpretation, but citing more than 50 tafsirs is time consuming, and as of now this article is already on average size and we haven’t even dived into the rest of his allegation, so I’m forced to leave out the rest of these tafsirs for the sake of brevity, Let us proceed to his next Nonsense
Issue #3:
@03:11 the masked Arab says Literally the following words “the Quran repeatedly tells us in the clearest of terms that the earth was created first before the heavens” before we proceed into the verses he cites, Let us focus on what he just said, because these quotes are so important, He said “the Quran repeatedly tells us in the clearest of terms” meaning that there is no figurative speech, that the words and explicitly and that the Quran should directly say that the earth was created first, does this really exist on the verses he cites? Let’s read
The first one he cites is 2:29
{ It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.}
Does this verse in anyway shape or form without tafsirs suggest or even Say that the earth was created first? I watched the entire segment from 03:11-04:30 there is not a single, not even one Tafsir was cite, no explanation, not even a viral MEMRI Tv video, not a single scholar was cited, only he and his naive interpretation, That is it, I could just leave it there and ask and demand tafsirs to bring his evidence but I will do this job for him
While to be Fair, there are scholars like Ibn Kathir, Mujahid, and ibn Jarir who did state that the earth was created first[20]
Even so, ibn Kathir stated that there are scholars who disagreed with this approach[21]
However, Tabari gives a more proper explanation of what it meant here by “then he directed Himself to the heaven”
“القول في تأويل قوله تعالى : ( ثم استوى إلى السماء فسواهن سبع سماوات )
قال أبو جعفر : اختلفوا في تأويل قوله : " ثم استوى إلى السماء "
فقال بعضهم: معنى استوى إلى السماء ، أقبل عليها ، كما تقول: كان فلان مقبلا على فلان ، ثم استوى علي يشاتمني ، واستوى إلي يشاتمني”[22]
Translation:
What it’s interpreted here by God { Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens} some said this means he went directly to heaven and changed it, like when someone says someone was facing a person, then he turned to me insulting me
“وقال بعضهم : " ثم استوى إلى السماء " عمد لها . وقال : بل كل تارك عملا كان فيه إلى آخر فهو مستو لما عمد له ، ومستو إليه .”[23]
And some said “then he directed to the heaven” mean he returned to it because he was doing a task that he was busy with then left it to direct himself to another task
Note here how Tabari state that this could mean by some scholars that God was not creating earth first, but rather busy with it then he turned to heaven and changed it, let’s continue
Long before the discovery of earth dating and universal dating, Tabari did deal with the issue of whether or not this means, the age of the universe was discovered or estimated in 2012 by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), Tabari died long before this time right in 923 AD
Nevertheless, let us see what was his argument:
“قال أبو جعفر: وإن قال لنا قائل: أخبرنا عن استواء الله جل ثناؤه إلى السماء ، كان قبل خلق السماء أم بعده ؟
قيل: بعده ، وقبل أن يسويهن سبع سماوات ، كما قال جل ثناؤه : ( ثم استوى إلى السماء وهي دخان فقال لها وللأرض ائتيا طوعا أو كرها ) [ سورة فصلت: 11 ]. والاستواء كان بعد أن خلقها دخانا ، وقبل أن يسويها سبع سماوات”
Translation:
Abu Ja’far said: and if a questioner asked: tell us about god directing himself to the heaven, was it before or after the creation of heaven?
It was said: after, and before he turns it to seven heavens like how god said { Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."} and direction was after it was smoke already, and before he turns it into seven heavens
This is known as Shaikh of mufasirin, or the scholar of all tafsir scholars, here stating that the heaven was already smoke before god turned himself toward it (earth was still under creation here) after making geological changes on earth as the verse stat
More evidence from Tabari that heavens were not created after earth
“فقد أخبر ابن إسحاق أن الله جل ثناؤه استوى إلى السماء - بعد خلق الأرض وما فيها - وهن سبع من دخان ، فسواهن كما وصف”[24]
Translation:
Ibn Ishaq said that Allah turned his eyes to the heaven after he created earth, then he changed it into seven heavens from smoke
This above proves that heaven existed before earth because Ibn Ishaq stated that he turned himself to the heavens After he created earth to make the heavens into seven heavens
Later Tabari Quotes an interesting narration that I started seeing in many hadiths and tafsirs that I was searching
“فحدثني موسى بن هارون ، قال : حدثنا عمرو بن حماد ، قال : حدثنا أسباط ، عن السدي في خبر ذكره ، عن أبي مالك ، وعن أبي صالح ، عن ابن عباس ، وعن مرة ، عن ابن مسعود ، وعن ناس من أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : " هو الذي خلق لكم ما في الأرض جميعا ثم استوى إلى السماء فسواهن سبع سماوات " قال : إن الله تبارك وتعالى كان عرشه على الماء ، ولم يخلق شيئا غير ما خلق قبل الماء . فلما أراد أن يخلق الخلق ، أخرج من الماء دخانا ، فارتفع فوق الماء فسما عليه ، فسماه سماء. ثم أيبس الماء فجعله أرضا واحدة…………………”[25]
Translation:
Musa Ibn Haron Told us, said : Umro bin Hamad told us, Said: Asbat told us: from Al-Sudi in regards to what he was told from abi malik from Abi Salih from ibn abbas from mura from ibn mas’ud from companions of the prophet :”he is the one who created for you what’s in earth then he turned himself to heaven and made it seven heavens” said : God's throne was on water, and he never created anything Before the creation of water, when he wanted to create, he took out of the water smoke, and that smoke elevated above water and named it heaven so he created it, then he turned water on dray rock and that rock was one earth (our earth)……………….”
Ok so we are getting a bigger picture here, above seem to be a poetic description of creation, and it states that from water that God's throne was on top of it, god first created heaven, then out of water he created earth
Process :
stage 1: Throne wateràHeaven in the stage of smoke
Stage:2- Throne wateràEarth
Of course, the narration is far longer than what I have extracted from it, but I only took the parts that are relevant, namely earth and heaven, please keep in mind, Tabari was not the only one who mentioned this narration, I found this narration in so many other tafsirs
Of course, later on, Tabari cite also 2 more narrations that contradict the above narrations and state that earth was actually formed first as typical since we have countless of number of scholars, conflicting opinion is bound to exist, but what does the majority think of it
Ibn ‘Ashur stated that according to the majority of opinions in science this verse is evidence that earth was created later
“والبعدية ظاهرها: تأخر زمان حصول الفعل ، وهذه الآية أظهر في الدلالة على أن الأرض خلقت بعد السماوات وهو قول قتادة ، ومقاتل ، والسدي ، وهو الذي تؤيده أدلة علم الهيئة. وقد تقدم بيان ذلك عند قوله تعالى: هو الذي خلق لكم ما في الأرض جميعا ثم استوى إلى السماء فسواهن سبع سماوات في سورة البقرة ، وما ورد من الآيات مما ظاهره كظاهر آية سورة البقرة تأويله واضح .”[26]
Translation:
And what is apparent here is the delay of the action, this verse shows evidence that earth was created after heavens, and that is the opinion of Qutada and Muqatil and Sudi, and that is supported by the evidence of astronomy , and that was also supported by following verse {{ It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens} in chapter Baqara, and what later revealed by other verses and how they were interpreted
Ibn Kathir later appeared to have contradicted his previous statement regarding what was created first, at first as I mentioned he supported the notion that the earth was created first, but here he contradicts it by saying that god changed earth, expanded it, and created it after he created heaven
Translation:
And we answered regarding the verse {and the earth was later expanded} the expansion was not creation, and that happened after the heaven was created
if you wish to jump directly to the other accusation TMA have made and not spend more time reading all the other evidence I will provide, then you jump directly to issue #4
Some might say this is referring to a different event and is not talking about earth evolution. But that is not the case, the verse in question talks about the seven heavens and how god later returned to it to make it from smoke to seven heavens, the verse in the issue talks about how God created everything on earth then returned to heaven, meaning earth was not fully created and was not fully made at that time, so what does verse 79:30 context gives us, is it a fully created earth or earth going under changes?
Let us see the context of the expanding earth verse
Quran 79:27-33
{Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it., He raised its ceiling and proportioned it. And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness., And after that, He spread the earth. He extracted from it its water and its pasture, And the mountains He set firmly, As provision for you and your grazing livestock.}
So apparently 79:27-33 gives us a small description that the earth was going under changes, interestingly haven was mentioned first that god sated the heaven is far more complex creation than us, suggesting the heaven was already there, later god talks about how he was changing earth, adding mountains and different egological properties, 2:29 gives us a very similar scenario {It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.}
Apparently, God created everything on earth then returned to heaven, this is very similar to 79:27-33, where heaven was already there and god was making changes on earth
Please go back to 79:27
{ Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it}
Note how the question mark is later proceeded with the word “constructed it” as, In past tense, this suggests the heaven was already created before God make changes on earth as verse 30-32 explain changes earth is going into, meaning earth was not fully created
In conclusion 2:29 seem to be describing events that were after 70:27-33, almost all translations apart from Pickthall suggest that heaven was created first in 79:27
Even Pickthall translate it as follows
Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
Which also can suggest a past tense at the end of the verse
In conclusion:
79:27-33 suggest heavens was there first and god was changing the earth, then 2:29 describe god finishing earth changes then returned to heaven to turn it into seven heavens
Now Finally We Do have a scholar who stated what the majority of scholars think regarding this verse
“قوله تعالى ( هو الذي خلق لكم ما في الأرض جميعا ) لكي تعتبروا وتستدلوا وقيل لكي تنتفعوا ( ثم استوى إلى السماء ) قال ابن عباس وأكثر مفسري السلف أي ارتفع إلى السماء. وقال ابن كيسان والفراء وجماعة من النحويين أي أقبل على خلق السماء”[28]
Translation:
And God says {it’s he who created to you what’s on earth} so you can take example and take guidance and take benefits {then he directed himself to heaven} ibn Abbas said and majority of scholars in tafsir stated that this means he directed himself to heaven, and ibn Kisan and fara and a group of grammar scholars that this means before the creation of heaven
Now I know the last part suggests that this means the heaven was created later, but let us read more carefully “ibn Abbas said and majority of scholars in tafsir stated that this means he directed himself to heaven, and ibn Kisan and fara and a group of grammar scholars that this means the creation of heaven”
Take a close look at the first part, the first part state the heaven was already there, as the author of this tafsir state the majority of scholars agree that the heavens were already there, god simply directed himself back to it, but later ibn Kisan and Fara and a group of grammar scholas (not here says this is a group of grammar scholars not tafsir scholars nor are they a majority at all) state this means heaven was created later
So to take from the above source
The majority of scholars who are specialized in Quranic Tafsir agree that this verse refers to heaven preexisting earth
Few scholars who are not specialized in tafsir at all state so without context that this means heaven was created later
Note you can’t compare Grammar scholars to Tafsir Scholars at all, Tafsir scholars have more saying in the matter since they are more experts in Quranic context and Science than Grammar scholars who only looked at this verse without caring for the context of the Quran
Even the ibn mas’ud al bagawi the author of this tafsir say that this is only a group of grammar scholars, so not even the majority of grammar scholars agree with such interpretation
“وقوله : ( والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها ) اختلف أهل التأويل في معنى قوله ( بعد ذلك ) فقال بعضهم: دحيت الأرض من بعد خلق السماء
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حدثني محمد بن سعد ، قال: ثني أبي قال: ثني عمي ، قال: ثني أبي ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن عباس ( والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أخرج منها ماءها ومرعاها والجبال أرساها ) يعني: أن الله خلق السماوات والأرض ، فلما فرغ من السماوات قبل أن يخلق أقوات الأرض فيها بعد خلق السماء”[29]
Translation:
And his saying {and the earth we spread out} the people of interpretation differ in the meaning of {after} some said: spread meaning after the creation of the heaven
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Muhammad bin Sa’ad said: my father said: my uncle said: my father said, from his father from Ibn Abbas { He spread the earth. He extracted from it its water and its pasture, And the mountains He set firmly} meaning that God created heaven and earth, and when he was finished with creating heaven, he started creating earth properties then directed himself back to heaven
Again above is another evidence from Tabari, and yes on the same page Tabari cites conflicting reports that says the opposite, but as we have seen, these people who make conflicting opposition, are mainly grammar scholars and not tafsir scholars, the majority of tafsir scholars agreed that heaven was already there on earth as we have seen.
Let us see more evidence.
“السادسة : يظهر من هذه الآية أنه سبحانه خلق الأرض قبل السماء ، وكذلك في " حم السجدة " . وقال في النازعات : أأنتم أشد خلقا أم السماء بناها فوصف خلقها ، ثم قال : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها . فكأن السماء على هذا خلقت قبل الأرض ، وقال تعالى الحمد لله الذي خلق السماوات والأرض وهذا قول قتادة : إن السماء خلقت أولا ، حكاه عنه الطبري . وقال مجاهد وغيره من المفسرين : إنه تعالى أيبس الماء الذي كان عرشه عليه فجعله أرضا وثار منه دخان فارتفع ، فجعله سماء فصار خلق الأرض قبل خلق السماء ، ثم قصد أمره إلى السماء فسواهن سبع سماوات ، ثم دحا الأرض بعد ذلك ، وكانت إذ خلقها غير مدحوة .
قلت: وقول قتادة يخرج على وجه صحيح إن شاء الله تعالى ، وهو أن الله تعالى خلق أولا دخان السماء ثم خلق الأرض ، ثم استوى إلى السماء وهي دخان فسواها ، ثم دحا الأرض بعد ذلك .”[30](Qurtubi later Cites the story of the throne on top of water and disrobing the creation of heaven first)
Translation:
The sixth: the appearance of this verse is that God created earth before heaven, and so in sura Sujda and said in conflicts { What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? (Allah) hath constructed it:} this is a description of its creation then he said : and the earth we spread out, it’s like that the heaven was created before earth, and God said { Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth} and that is the opinion of Qutada that heavens were created first, then Tabari said that, then Mujahid said that and other of Tafsir scholars: God made Water dry then he turned it to earth, and the smoke that was on top of it was the heaven and so the creation of earth was before heaven as it seems, then he directed himself to heaven then he made them seven heavens, then he spread earth, when it was not spread
I said: and the meaning behind Qutada appears to be correct, and that is God created first the heavens as smoke then he created earth, then he returned to heaven when it was smoke and finished it, then he returned to earth and spread it out
Now as we have rested the case, we have an authentic hadith that drive the creation of heaven and earth, mentioning the creation of heaven first from the water of the throne, we also now have clear understanding where these contradictions come from, meaning the sources that support the notion that earth was created first, as it seems to be coming from minority of grammar scholars, while majority of scholars agree that heaven was created first
Now let us continue to the next verse (we are still not over with the masked Arab issue #3
@03:26 TMA says: “chapter 41:9-12 also give us the same order that the earth came before the heavens”
Let us read 41:9-12
{ Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds., He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance)., Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience.", So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with the guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.}
Apparently, this is the exact same verse as 2:29 with more details borrowed from 79:27-33 The same Tafsirs and evidence can be applied here as well
Let’s continue to the next allegation
He later @04:00 cites the same verse with the following statements “also looking at verse 41:9-12 we find that it takes god at least twice as long to build earth than it does for him to build everything else in our vast universe”
Now I’m not sure what is the argument here, no conclusion was presented, granted he later does state that this proves that the author of the Quran had a geocentric view of the world, what geocentric means is that the earth is considered the center of the universe, if we read the verses carefully where does the Quran at any point in the above-cited verse say the earth is at the center of the universe? What kind of an asinine claim is that?
Moving on let’s see what scholars have to say
“جعل مدة خلقها ضعف مدة خلق السموات مع كونها أصغر من السموات، دلالة على أنها هي المقصودة بالذات، لما فيها من الثقلين”[31]
He made the duration of Earth creation twice as much as the heaven despite the fact that it’s smaller than the heavens is that what is meant here is a poetic meaning that it’s mentioned specifically for how important it’s
The Author of this book is Burah al-deed Al-Buqa’I, he lived from 1407 to 1480, and could not have possibly known this long before the big bang, at that time we didn’t even know how large the universe really is
While the next Author is more modern, his opinion still mater
“إنما كانت مدة خلق السماوات السبع أقصر من مدة خلق الأرض مع أن عوالم السماوات أعظم وأكثر لأن الله خلق السماوات بكيفية أسرع، فلعل خلق السماوات كان بانفصال بعضها عن بعض”[32]
Translation:
The duration of the heavens creation being smaller than earth despite the fact that the heavens are much more larger than earth is probably explained by the fact that God created them faster by allowing them to be split from each other
Issue #4
@04:36
The masked Arab cites the same cliché argument that the Quran describes the stars as shooting stars
“their purpose is two-fold, one is that stars are created as decoration to the night sky and the other is that they act as form of protection for god and the angles and what’s called the high council or exalted assembly in heaven where god and the angles reside, the stars pelted at devils wo try and listen to what’s been said in heavens”
The masked Arab later say that in reality, this is metor and not stars, and start to talk so arrogantly about how this is only prominent in 7th century Arabia who never understood reality.
Now I have already dealt with this issue before in the comment section of my blog and refuted it, so I will cite the sources I used
“وقيل : إن الضمير راجع إلى المصابيح على أن الرجم من أنفس الكواكب ، ولا يسقط الكوكب نفسه إنما ينفصل منه شيء يرجم به ، من غير أن ينقص ضوءه ولا صورته "”[33]
Translation:
the pronoun that is in regards to the shooting stars that it shoots out from itself, and not the star itself, but rather a part of it separate and thrown at without losing any of its light or image
“" عاد الضمير في قوله : ( وَجَعَلْنَاهَا ) على جنس المصابيح لا على عينها ؛ لأنه لا يرمي بالكواكب التي في السماء ، بل بشهب من دونها ، وقد تكون مستمدة منها ، والله أعلم " “[34]
Translation:
the pronoun in his words {we made it} in regards to part of the shooting stars, not themselves because the star itself is not thrown, but something out of it disconnects, and it might be from it, and God knows best
now what follows are words from Ibn Abbas himself, a relative of the prophet his cousin
“فأتبعه شهاب ثاقب أي مضيء ، قاله الضحاك والحسن وغيرهما. وقيل: المراد كواكب النار تتبعهم حتى تسقطهم في البحر. وقال ابن عباس في الشهب: تحرقهم من غير موت. وليست الشهب التي يرجم الناس بها من الكواكب الثوابت. يدل على ذلك رؤية حركاتها ، والثابتة تجري ولا ترى حركاتها لبعدها”[35]
Translation:
Then a shooting star followed it meaning after it, Thahak and Hasan and other said: what is meant here by shooting star is that fire follows it until it falls into the sea, Ibn Abbas said regarding the shooting star it burns them with no death, and the shooting star itself is not a stationary celestial object, evident by its movement, and the stationary fixed ones are not because they don’t move and can’t be seen moving duo to its large distance
“وجعلناها رجوما للشياطين أي جعلنا شهبها; فحذف المضاف. دليله: إلا من خطف الخطفة فأتبعه شهاب ثاقب. وعلى هذا فالمصابيح لا تزول ولا يرجم بها. وقيل: إن الضمير راجع إلى المصابيح على أن الرجم من أنفس الكواكب ، ولا يسقط الكوكب نفسه إنما ينفصل منه شيء يرجم به من غير أن ينقص ضوءه ولا صورته”[36]
Translation:
And we made it shooting star meaning we made it Shahab: so the insertion was removed, evidence: Except one who snatches [some words] by theft, but they are pursued by a burning flame, piercing [in brightness]. And those stars don’t go away and are not thrown by itself, it was said that this means that the shooting star eject something from it, and the star itself doesn’t fall only something is separated from it and is used to shoot without losing its light and image
[1]http://main.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=7&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
[2] Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 70
[3]http://consult.islamweb.net/consult/index.php?page=Details&id=269107&RecID=0&srchwords=%C2%ED%C7%CA%20%E3%CD%DF%E3%C7%CA%20%E5%E4%20%C3%E3%20%C7%E1%DF%CA%C7%C8%20%E6%C3%CE%D1%20%E3%CA%D4%C7%C8%E5%C7%CA%20&R1=1&R2=0&wheretosearch=0&hIndex=&order=
[4] Tafsir Ibn Kathri 2/6
[5] Ibn Uthaimn Fatwa Noor ‘Ala Darb
[7] ibid
[8] ibid
[9] ibid
[10] ibid
[11] ibid
[12] Ibid
[13] Al-Kashif By Zamakhshari Chapter Surat Al-'Anbyā'
[14] http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2646&Itemid=76
[15] Al’Jami’ Li Ahkam Al-Quran vol.11 page.192-193
[16] ibid
[17] Lisan Al-Arab vol.6 page.65-96
[19] Athwa Al-Bayan Fi Ithah Al-Quran bil Quran By Imam Muhammad Al-Shankanti Vol.4 page.140-142
[20] Tafsir Ibn Kathir Vol.1 Page.213-216
[21] ibid
[22] Tafsir Tabari vol.1 page.428-437
[23] ibid
[24] ibid
[25] ibid
[27] Al-Bidaya Wa Al-Nihaya by Ibn Kathir vol.1 page.64
[28] Tafsir Al-Baqwi Vol.1 Page.78-79
[29] Tafsir Al-Tabari Vol.24 Page.208
[30] Tafsir Qurtubi vol.1 page.243
[31] Nothom Al-Dur Fi Tanasub Al-Ayat Wa Al-Suar vol.17 page.152
[32] Tahrir Wa Al-Tanwir by Ibn ‘Ashur
[33] Al-Jami' Liahkam Al-Quran (18 / 210-211)by al-qurtubi
[34] tafsir ibn kathir (8 / 177)
[35] Tafsir Al-Qurtubi vol.15 page.62-63
[36] Tafsir Al-Qurtubi vol.18 page.195
Great article also wanted to ask you said al andulusia was going to create a video debunking masked arab and also in islam how can you explain the hadith which says to women they a deficient in the mind and religion and and about beating your wife's?
ReplyDeleteThis Hadith is not to be taken as the prophet is like saying women are just stupid in everything, first we need to understand what the word 'Aqil means here, generally translated it will give the impression that it means mind, but there are multiple meanings to it, 'Aqil can mean a branch in philosophy or philosophy itself, and it can also refer to an adult rather than child, these are some of the uses of the word 'aqil outside brain
Deletenow what is the issue here, according to many scholars what the prophet was referring to here is that women are not very reliable alone in terms of jurisdictional issues like going to curt, or anything related to law school as witnesses, that is why the verse 2:282
{so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her}
Imam nawawi stated that what the prophet was referring to here is this verse regarding taking women as witnesses in law related issues
Source:
Fatih Al-Mun'im Li Sharih sahih muslim, by imam nawawi, vol.1 page.258
this doesn't mean women are stupid in everything, there are many occupations women are better than men, not sure about them, but this just explain that this hadith and the prophet statment was not general, even the prophet himself directly mention that verse
muhammad bin Shhab al-dean al-reamly also stated the same thing
"women are deficient in the mind and religion meaning they lose one witness side"
source:
Nihaya Al-Mihtaj Ila Sharih Al-Minhaj vol.1 page.329
Ahmed Idres al-faraqi stated the same thing
"deficient in the mind and religion this means it's appropriate that they don't take a position among witnesses alone"
with regards to wife beating i think i dealt with it before did i? if you need more sources please inform me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWZhwG9HQE&lc=z23wfbpokz3nj1g5h04t1aokgktzf0bk0afm5tuhqbzirk0h00410.1510163607542406
ReplyDeleteI am debating with a ex muslim youtuber and are my arguments faulty or useless as to her claim and please chime in you want?
I would highly recommend you don't spend time debating exmuslims on YouTube
DeleteStop spamming is there? oh mine don't waste your time with that garbage
DeleteStarted another debate with another ex muslim "apostate prophet" who is another wannabe masked arab.
Deletewell, that guy "apostate prophet" simply left islam because his life sucked, i recommend focus on more serious ex-muslims like TMA, who i take down simply because of how wide he is and he takes more serious approach (but deceptive) unlike this troll, but if the demand for him and introverted smiles was needed, i will address them so don't worry.
DeletePretty good article Zaid, i've been reading comments on his Arabic videos, seems most of his Arab fans are atheists and people who are kinda fed up of Islam, reminds of my past self ...Nice refutation by the way...
ReplyDeletei was one of those people, now so ashamed of my past and embarrassed when i was against Islam, these people are not normal, they suffer a dangerous mental disorder
DeleteI don't get this rebuttal, the majority of your citations don't support the view that the Quran explains the Big Bang and if the Quran is a book meant for all people and a book of Guidance, what's the point of including allegories for creation that incorrectly describe the creation of the universe? What's the point when God could simply describe the universe accurately, these allegories are useless to everyone.
ReplyDeleteYou must realize that your apologetics aren't convincing to non-Muslims what so ever, it's the same with Christians when there are scientific errors in the Bible, they claim they are allegories and metaphors, you're so-called "rebuttal" can apply to any religious holy book. The Quran describes a Geocentric universe very similar to how Arabs understood the World at that time and similar to the Bible which in turn copied Babylonian creation myths. To non-Muslims this makes the Quran seem very man-made. It's not the Masked Arabs audience who is gullible, it is you and your audience.
the point of this refutation is to show that TMA interpretation is not the only probable one, or more likely the least probable one based on majority of scholars, no where did i said the quran support or acknowledge the big bang, as the quran say itself, several verses can be allegorical, some of these stories of creation can be allegorical, some are littral , like how it's littral for the quran to say the sun can't be on the same orbit as the moon, but that beg the question, how do you know they are incorrect? assuming you already know what they aim at
Deletewhy are they useless? they convey a message like how capable god can be, creating a vast universe so we can respect him for it, it doesn't have to be literal, you often use an allegorical example to convey your greatness and majesty, also again no where did i said either that these verses are allegorical in nature, i make no stance on them, but i only show how scholars see these verses, and in lite of the evidence i showed, how it's grammar scholars who make the claim that the earth was created first, rather than tafsir scholars, yet you and the rest of TMA fans will disregard this as "apologetic bias"
i don't seek to convince non-muslims, because they won't be convinced anyways, i showed several times how the masked arab lied, cited weak sources, cited books that disagree with him, misinterpreted and mistranslated several texts,quote minded several tafsiers, and so on and so forth and despite all of the evidence that i showed that even an honest ex-muslim arab will agree on, despite all of that yet non-muslims are not convinced, especially his fans, take his citation of Tabari account of the sun sitting in a muddy water, i showed how he cited a rejected narration in history of tabari, gave sources that are as clear as the sun, yet non of his fans that directed his accusation to me acknowldge his mistake when i pointed it out, when he rebuttal to my article with a silly excuse of a facebook post with a book to save his video, i too took that book and turned it on him, yet no one acknowldge that, ask yourself this, why? if we are so gullible how can i find his errors and show them with clear evidence? either you are too blind to defend him, or too bias to acknowldge his mistakes
I know it's been months but I lost track of time so I finally decided to reply.
Delete"why are they useless? they convey a message like how capable god can be, creating a vast universe so we can respect him for it, it doesn't have to be literal, you often use an allegorical example to convey your greatness and majesty, also again no where did i said either that these verses are allegorical in nature, i make no stance on them, but i only show how scholars see these verses, and in lite of the evidence i showed, how it's grammar scholars who make the claim that the earth was created first, rather than tafsir scholars, yet you and the rest of TMA fans will disregard this as "apologetic bias""
They are useless because the way God describes the creation of the universe in the Quran actually limits his capabilities, the Universe described in the Quran is clearly a Geocentric universe where stars are missiles for Jinns where as in the real Universe the Earth is a tiny planet in a massive Universe and stars are gigantic balls of burning Hydrogen. Why would describe a small universe when it's actually Gigantic? Probably because the Quran isn't from God.
"i don't seek to convince non-muslims, because they won't be convinced anyways, i showed several times how the masked arab lied, cited weak sources, cited books that disagree with him, misinterpreted and mistranslated several texts,quote minded several tafsiers, and so on and so forth and despite all of the evidence that i showed that even an honest ex-muslim arab will agree on, despite all of that yet non-muslims are not convinced, especially his fans, take his citation of Tabari account of the sun sitting in a muddy water, i showed how he cited a rejected narration in history of tabari, gave sources that are as clear as the sun, yet non of his fans that directed his accusation to me acknowldge his mistake when i pointed it out, when he rebuttal to my article with a silly excuse of a facebook post with a book to save his video, i too took that book and turned it on him, yet no one acknowldge that, ask yourself this, why? if we are so gullible how can i find his errors and show them with clear evidence? either you are too blind to defend him, or too bias to acknowldge his mistakes"
You didn't prove him wrong though, the Masked Arab clearly stated that the Quran doesn't describe the Big Bang and you completely made a strawman of him and inadvertently helped him prove his point.
"They are useless because the way God describes the creation of the universe in the Quran actually limits his capabilities, the Universe described in the Quran is clearly a Geocentric universe "
DeleteCitation needed
"where stars are missiles for Jinns"
did you not read my reply? I have already addressed that
"Why would describe a small universe when it's actually Gigantic? "
small universe? your evidence?and while we are at it, the Quran does make the distinction of the universe being vast
http://legacy.quran.com/79/27
"Probably because the Quran isn't from God."
nonsequitur fallacy
"You didn't prove him wrong though, the Masked Arab clearly stated that the Quran doesn't describe the Big Bang and you completely made a strawman of him and inadvertently helped him prove his point."
red herring fallacy, my wall of text shows with clear evidence how bias he is and how bias you are, yet you revert it to (but TMA shows Quran doesn't Describe big bang) which nowhere do I address that at all
"and you completely made a strawman of him and inadvertently helped him prove his point."
Citation needed, stop using his response on Reddit where he accused me of strawmaning him without a single example, show me where I strawman him instead of making claims with no proof
unlike you i provided several examples in that wall of text why he lie to his gullible fans, your response was (you didn't address that, and you strawman him) way to go in moving the goal post
"Citation needed"
DeleteThe fact that the Quran describes the Earth as being Flat/Spread Out multiple times without once saying that the Earth round, never once mentions the Earth orbiting the Sun and heavily hints that the Sun orbits the Earth with the Moon.
"did you not read my reply? I have already addressed that"
Yes and it was scientifically weak, you took a interpretation that it's not the stars but something being flung from. So let's assume this to be correct, since all stars exist on the 1st heaven and let's assume that the 1st Heaven is the observable Universe, this means that Jinns would have to travel at a speed far faster than the speed of light just to reach the 2nd Heaven meaning anything flung from Stars would be ineffective against them. Either way this verse is scientifically weak, never mind the fact that other Quran verse describe falling stars.
"small universe? your evidence?and while we are at it, the Quran does make the distinction of the universe being vast
http://legacy.quran.com/79/27"
Doesn't exactly literate point very well, it's just saying that the heavens were harder to make. If Jinns can travel to the Heavens then the universe according to the Quran can't be very big.
"nonsequitur fallacy"
Not really, it's just that I've seen the exact same apologetics from Jews, Christians, Mormons etc when it comes to blatant scientific errors in their Holy books. All of them claim that the Holy Books are speaking allegorically or metaphorically so either all of these Holy Books are from God speaking metaphorically or the more likely explanation is they are all man made written by men with little understanding of science.
"red herring fallacy, my wall of text shows with clear evidence how bias he is and how bias you are, yet you revert it to (but TMA shows Quran doesn't Describe big bang) which nowhere do I address that at all"
The fact that all he said was that the Quran doesn't describe the Big Bang and he never claimed his interpretation is absolute in the video but you went off on a tangent showing other interpretations which strengthened his point. Your whole article is you showing that there are other interpretations to these verses which are equally scientifically wrong.
"The fact that the Quran describes the Earth as being Flat/Spread Out"
DeleteDoes the Quran says "the earth we created it flat"?
"multiple times without once saying that the Earth round,"
nonsequitur fallacy, just because the Quran doesn't describe a round earth (which it does) that doesn't mean it describes a flat one
"never once mentions the Earth orbiting the Sun"
nonsequitur fallacy, just because the Quran never mention the rotation of the earth around the sun doesn't mean that it mentions sun rotating the earth
"and heavily hints that the Sun orbits the Earth with the Moon."
citation needed
"Yes and it was scientifically weak"
now you just proved that you didn't read it, at no point do I argue from the scientific point of view, I show what scholars say regarding it's meaning
"you took an interpretation that it's not the stars but something being flung from. "
Strawman fallacy, I said it's a rejection from the stars a flair or an ejection of ray blasts from it, not the star itself this is your third fallacy so far
"So let's assume this to be correct, since all stars exist on the 1st heaven and let's assume that the 1st Heaven is the observable Universe, this means that Jinns would have to travel at a speed far faster than the speed of light just to reach the 2nd Heaven meaning anything flung from Stars would be ineffective against them. Either way, this verse is scientifically weak, never mind the fact that other Quran verse describes falling stars."
Citation needed
"Doesn't exactly literate point very well, it's just saying that the heavens were harder to make. "
Strawman fallacy, do you understand the meaning of the word vast? Vast means that it contains vast amount of quantity, Not size per say, this is your fifth fallacy
"If Jinns can travel to the Heavens then the universe according to the Quran can't be very big. "
Nonsequitur fallacy, this is your sixth fallacy so far
"Not really, it's just that I've seen the exact same apologetics from Jews, Christians, Mormons etc when it comes to blatant scientific errors in their Holy books. All of them claim that the Holy Books are speaking allegorically or metaphorically so either all of these Holy Books are from God "
what apologitics, yet another straw man, nowhere do I argue for scientific miracles or at no point I'm saying they are allegorical, I argue that your arguments that the Quran contains scientific errors is based on absurd reasoning and misrepresentations of the text
"which strengthened his point. "
Citation needed
"The fact that all he said was that the Quran doesn't describe the Big Bang and he never claimed his interpretation is absolute in the video"
Strawman fallacy, the arguments I make is that he is deliberately hide the other interpretations from his gullible audience, not that he claims his interpretation is absulote, this is your seventh fallacy so far
"which are equally scientifically wrong."
Citation needed
"Does the Quran says "the earth we created it flat"?"
DeleteNope but it's described as being Spread out like a carpet. Now tell me how being spread out like a carpet is anyway like a sphere?
"nonsequitur fallacy, just because the Quran doesn't describe a round earth (which it does) that doesn't mean it describes a flat one"
When does the Quran describe the Earth as being round?
"citation needed"
Quran 36:37-40 (And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness. And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk. It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.)
There is no stopping point for the Sun and the orbit of the Sun and Moon is constantly referred to in context of day and night, this heavily suggests that the Sun is orbiting the Earth.
"now you just proved that you didn't read it, at no point do I argue from the scientific point of view, I show what scholars say regarding it's meaning"
I did read it, whether or not The Masked Arabs interpretation is wrong is not the point, it's the fact that it's scientifically wrong and your other interpretation was equally wrong
"Strawman fallacy, I said it's a rejection from the stars a flair or an ejection of ray blasts from it, not the star itself this is your third fallacy so far"
Maybe it's because English isn't your 1st language but I never said it was the star itself but something "flung" from the Star meaning something came from it.
"Citation needed"
Quran 81:2 (And when the stars fall, dispersing,)
"Strawman fallacy, do you understand the meaning of the word vast? Vast means that it contains vast amount of quantity, Not size per say, this is your fifth fallacy"
Quran 79:27 (Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.)
Nowhere does this verse make any mention of how vast the Heavens are, I'd assume the Heavens are harder to make than Humans whether it's big or small.
"Nonsequitur fallacy, this is your sixth fallacy so far"
You like to throw out the word fallacy without much understanding for the word or the context do you?
"what apologitics, yet another straw man, nowhere do I argue for scientific miracles or at no point I'm saying they are allegorical, I argue that your arguments that the Quran contains scientific errors is based on absurd reasoning and misrepresentations of the text"
Absurd reasoning and misrepresentations of the text? Seriously just read some of the "Scholarly" interpretations you listed and they're scientifically wrong
"Citation needed"
Read your own article
"Strawman fallacy, the arguments I make is that he is deliberately hide the other interpretations from his gullible audience, not that he claims his interpretation is absulote, this is your seventh fallacy so far"
Hiding other interpretations? He never said there aren't other interpretations, he only showed why the Big Bang couldn't be in the Quran by comparing what the Quran actually said and what actually happened in the Big Bang. Also these other interpretations are equally scientifically wrong.
As there wasn't enough space I'll address your last point.
Delete"Citation needed"
Learn Science and read your own article. I'll help you with one though
"The Third: meaning they had no rain falling and earth had no plant life so god brought rain to heaven, and brought plant life to earth"
"If you would know clearly the opinion of the school of interpretation, know this is that the third interpretation is the most accepted one, and it’s based on three of evidence from the Quran:"
This is clearly a myth similar to Adam and Eve, plant life didn't "come about" because of rain, it took billions of years evolving under the Ocean long after the Oceans already formed without the need of rainfall. But let me guess you're going to come up with another interpretation after this one is shown to be wrong
My reply
Deletehttps://pastebin.com/FhjpzvxX
“the word "Like a carpet" is the addition of the translators/commentators, nowhere does the Arabic Quran verse come even close to the word carpet, it's not even mentioned at all, some commentators use the parentheses () to add their own words, this is how you make a distinction”
DeleteYes, and the Quran still describes the Earth as being spread out multiple times without referring to it as being a sphere once.
“now English translations don't actually give an ideal translations of the word in this verse, the word is Yukawiro, which comes from the root of the word Kura meaning ball, this means Yukawiro meaning overlapping spherical of two conditions, here is night and day, now as I said this is a hint, not a direct literal meaning that it's spherical at all”
So that’s the best evidence you have? A stretch of the interpretation? It doesn’t make any mention of the Earth as being a sphere and this could easily be referring to the fact that the Heavens are a dome over the Earth in Geocentric models considering it’s talking about Night and Day.
“That is a strawman fallacy, now not only you didn't provide a single commentary at all, you stated that this verse says the sun orbit the earth, now at no point does it make any statement like this, earth is not even mentioned there now in case you are wondering "then why does it say that the sun has it's own orbit" this can be interpreted as the galactic year, where the sun orbit around the milky way galaxy”
You honestly don’t know what a strawman fallacy really is do you? I don’t need a Tafsir to make a point but only to strengthen a point, you won’t find any classical tafsir referring to the Sun orbiting the Milky Way Galaxy either. Anyway, I said the Orbit of the Sun has absolutely nothing to do with cycles of night and day which is when the Sun’s orbit is always mentioned in context of night and day which has absolutely nothing to do with the orbit of the Sun.
“It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.”
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1487&Itemid=92
“(They all float, each in an orbit.) means, night and day, the sun and the moon, all of them are floating, i.e., revolving, in their orbits in the heaven. This was the view of Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrimah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and `Ata' Al-Khurasani. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, and others among the Salaf said, "In an orbit like the arc of a spinning wheel.'”
There is no way of interpreting this verse to be scientifically sound if taken literally and if taken allegorically it is a pointless verse.
“and at no point do I say that this is referring to size, hence my use of the word "Vast"
Maybe it’s because English isn’t your first language (no offence) but in the context of saying a place or location is “Vast” you are essentially making a description of its size and contents.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vast
“Quran 81:2 (And when the stars fall, dispersing,)
Context?”
You can read the Quran for yourself, right? Anyway, the context is Judgement Day and the Quran seems suspiciously like The Bible’s description of Judgement day too.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_stars
“Read this part carefully "The first is the people of disbelief saw it, meaning this was a display in front of them, meaning they saw that the sky had no rain falling, and the earth had no plant life, dead, so God brought rain and so behold plant life of different kinds came
Deletethis does not refer to the evolution of Life on Earth, as you can see this was an event that happened in front of disbelievers, not based on early stages of earth.
my lord, you copy TMA method like a copycat, you misquote the sources and strawman it at the same time.”
“Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from his father from `Ikrimah that Ibn `Abbas was asked; "Did the night come first or the day'' He said, "Do you think that when the heavens and the earth were joined together, there was anything between them except darkness Thus you may know that the night came before the day. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Umar said that a man came to him and questioned him about when the heavens and earth were joined together then they were parted. He said, "Go to that old man (Shaykh) and ask him, then come and tell me what he says to you.'' So he went to Ibn `Abbas and asked him. Ibn `Abbas said: "Yes, the heavens were joined together and it did not rain, and the earth was joined together and nothing grew. When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.'
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2645&Itemid=76
Notice the line “When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.” It would appear this is a more detailed version of the 3rd interpretation and your own article shows this
“Ibn Abbas said in Al-Mahduwi words: the heavens were joined dray doesn’t rain, and earth have no plants, so god separated them and created rain and plants”
In fact, interpretations 2 and 3 aren’t mutually exclusive meaning they all happened since Ibn Abbas apparently supported both.
“The second: the seven heavens were joined, so god separated them and made them 7 separate heavens, each pair is separated, and so does earth”
“Ibn Abbas and Hassan and ‘ataand Qutada said: meaning that it was one thing then god separated them with air, and so did ka’ab said: God created heavens and earth one on top another, then he created wind and with it he separated them and made heavens seven and earth seven, Mathur said that mujahid and sudi and Abu Salih said: it was one layer heaven so he separated them and made it seven layers”
"
DeleteYes, and the Quran still describes the Earth as being spread out multiple times without referring to it as being a sphere once.
"
again nonsequitur fallacy, I already addressed where the Quran gives a hint at earth spherical shape and I already said that if the Quran doesn't describe that and says "spread out" that doesn't logically follow that it's saying "the earth is flat"
you still need to provide a verse that says "and the earth we created it flat" the burden of proof is on you.
"So that’s the best evidence you have? A stretch of the interpretation? "
Read carefully don't strawman me again
"now as I said this is a hint, not a direct literal meaning that it's spherical at all”
" I don’t need a Tafsir to make a point but only to strengthen a point, you won’t find any classical tafsir referring to the Sun orbiting the Milky Way Galaxy either."
another strawman, can you please stop? no where I said tafsirs says this is galactic year, i said this Can be intepreted as glatctic year, you keep misreprenting my source, i gave you 3 main interpretation based on all tafsir scholars, if you look in arabic all books of tafsir they give you these 3 intepretations only along side the hadith of the prophet asking where the sun sits, from these 3 intepretations since they are the only ones available in tafsir jursipudance we can clearly see through the shallow claim that the quran says the sun orbit the earth, because non of these 3 intepretations (even if we accept all of them) make such statment
"Notice the line “When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.” It would appear this is a more detailed version of the 3rd interpretation and your own article shows this
“Ibn Abbas said in Al-Mahduwi words: the heavens were joined dray doesn’t rain, and earth have no plants, so god separated them and created rain and plants”
In fact, interpretations 2 and 3 aren’t mutually exclusive meaning they all happened since Ibn Abbas apparently supported both."
the source you provided from ibn Kathir is an abridged tafsir of the third most accepted interpretation by the majority of scholars that I cited
if you could read the tafsir I cited carefully at the end it says so god separated heavens to rain, this is referring to heavens of earth but no reference again to earth at its early stages of development, the source I provided that gives 3 interpretations gives a more details analysis, the above tafsir by ibn Abbas narration gives an abridge statement of interpretation 3
I'm in no way rejecting any tafsir, but as i stated the other sources i provided which you quoted only 2 of them are abridged statements of 2 parts of the main source i provided, the third interpretation is basically agreed upon by majority of scholars
untill you bring me a tafsir that contradict my source and say that this is referring to the earth when it was already created and brought life at the memento of it's creation with rain and gives Ijma' general consensus (like my tafsir said) then you have a leg to stand on
"There is no way of interpreting this verse to be scientifically sound if taken literally and if taken allegorically it is a pointless verse.
Delete"
Citation needed
"Maybe it’s because English isn’t your first language (no offense) but in the context of saying a place or location is “Vast” you are essentially making a description of its size and contents."
"creating a vast universe so we can respect him for it,"
where is any reference to size above?
"“Quran 81:2 (And when the stars fall, dispersing,)
Context?”
You can read the Quran for yourself, right? Anyway, the context is Judgement Day and the Quran seems suspiciously like The Bible’s description of Judgement day too.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_stars"
this is astonishing research, you are basically going into a bible search engine and search for "Falling Stars" the problem here is is that this is a randmizer search result, it doesn't give any chronological order of verses, let alone a dedicated chapter called "what bible describe in judgment day" the search engine will give you resault of any verse that mentions "Falling Stars" or "Falling" or "Stars" and even of that your search resualt doesn't give you "Falling Stars" on it's on, not a single verse cited by that search result contain these two words.
this is like me searching on http://legacy.quran.com for "kill" and get every verse that mentions this word, that doesn't mean I will get its context
in order for you to give me what the bible describes in judgment day you need to make a chronological citation of every verse dedicated to describing judgement day events like revelations
not a silly search engine results
anyways here are more academic meanings of Vast
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/vast
A vast audience watched the broadcast.
The amount of detail the book contains is vast.
The people who have taken our advice have saved themselves vast amounts/sums of money.
The vast majority of children attend state schools.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/vast
To very great extent or quantity; immense.
size can either mean size in shape or size in content
here vast means content
Continuing further from your selective use of ibn Kathir tafsir
"(And We have made from water every living thing. ) meaning, the origin of every living thing is in water. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "I said: O Messenger of Allah, when I see you I feel happy and content, tell me about everything.'' He said,"
here is a more detailed explanation to what the verse was saying since you took the verse out of context from ibn kathir
"(Everything was created from water.) "I said, tell me about something which, if I do it, I will enter Paradise.'' He said:"
as the part you cited was referring to the separation of heavens and earth more precisely later Ibn Kathir uses the next part "and made from water every living thing"
and there he gives what his opinion is, you took the first part and associated the part regarding water and inserted them together, Shameful
if you gonna cite Ibn Kathir don't do the same as TMA did and cite only the part that suit you and neglect the rest
“again nonsequitur fallacy, I already addressed where the Quran gives a hint at earth spherical shape and I already said that if the Quran doesn't describe that and says "spread out" that doesn't logically follow that it's saying "the earth is flat"
Deleteyou still need to provide a verse that says "and the earth we created it flat" the burden of proof is on you.”
Tell me what sphere is spread out like a bed exactly? The Quran supports a flat earth far more than it does a spherical earth.
“another strawman, can you please stop? no where I said tafsirs says this is galactic year, i said this Can be intepreted as glatctic year, you keep misreprenting my source, i gave you 3 main interpretation based on all tafsir scholars, if you look in arabic all books of tafsir they give you these 3 intepretations only along side the hadith of the prophet asking where the sun sits, from these 3 intepretations since they are the only ones available in tafsir jursipudance we can clearly see through the shallow claim that the quran says the sun orbit the earth, because non of these 3 intepretations (even if we accept all of them) make such statement”
Please tell me how the orbit of the sun has any effect on day and night? The orbit of the Sun in the Quran is always mentioned in context of day and night.
“if you could read the tafsir I cited carefully at the end it says so god separated heavens to rain, this is referring to heavens of earth but no reference again to earth at its early stages of development, the source I provided that gives 3 interpretations gives a more details analysis, the above tafsir by ibn Abbas narration gives an abridge statement of interpretation 3”
These were not 3 separate interpretations though, they were 3 different stages of the same interpretation from ibn Abbas. Like I’ve already said this entire article is useless, you completely straw manned TMA and then inadvertently helped his position you fool.
“"There is no way of interpreting this verse to be scientifically sound if taken literally and if taken allegorically it is a pointless verse."
“Citation needed”
At this point I believe you’re so stupid you must be spoon fed everything, literally read the above tafsir by Ibn Abbas (who you love to quote so much), it literally says that day and night are in an orbit, day and night are not objects in orbit of the earth.
“where is any reference to size above?”
Seriously are you stupid? When describing a location as “vast” you are always talking about size. Literally look at your own link and see the example sentences for when vast is used to describe a location, that it’s always describing size.
“By half past eleven the vast expanse of Trafalgar Square was already full.”
“Unlike your own tiny island, Canada is a vast expanse covering almost every known climatic type.”
“All you can see when you get out of the car is this vast flat expanse of grass.”
“In the gloom across the vast expanse of sand the distant hills awaited the daylight.”
“This vast mountainous region is crossed by just two roads which wind their way up to high, windblown passes.”
“Southward the land drops away to a vast plain suitable for livestock and plantation farming.”
“this is astonishing research, you are basically going into a bible search engine and search for "Falling Stars" the problem here is is that this is a randmizer search result, it doesn't give any chronological order of verses, let alone a dedicated chapter called "what bible describe in judgment day" the search engine will give you resault of any verse that mentions "Falling Stars" or "Falling" or "Stars" and even of that your search resualt doesn't give you "Falling Stars" on it's on, not a single verse cited by that search result contain these two words.”
Maybe your just really stupid but I honestly don’t’ see what you’re complaining about, you’re just arguing semantics, the 1st three quotes literally say “stars will fall from heaven”
as the part you cited was referring to the separation of heavens and earth more precisely later Ibn Kathir uses the next part "and made from water every living thing"
Deleteand there he gives what his opinion is, you took the first part and associated the part regarding water and inserted them together, Shameful
if you gonna cite Ibn Kathir don't do the same as TMA did and cite only the part that suit you and neglect the rest”
Selective use of Ibn Kathir? Are you stupid? I quoted your own article as well as Ibn Kathir who quotes Ibn Abbas, everything you said is a red herring and nowhere does it contradict the fact that Ibn Abbass viewed that early life came with the rain.
"Selective use of Ibn Kathir? Are you stupid? I quoted your own article as well as Ibn Kathir who quotes Ibn Abbas, everything you said is a red herring and nowhere does it contradict the fact that Ibn Abbass viewed that early life came with the rain. "
Deleteno, it's selective because you don't give the full contex, you are increadibly blind, you did't cite my article, you quoted that part and used ibn kathir interpretaion which is as i said was an abridge version of the third interpretation that you misquoted
red herring? where? if you gonna accuse me of a logical fallacy show me where i committed it (like i did to you) i clearly showed where you misquoted my articles, strawmanned my postion, and attributed the burden of proof on you, yet you on the other hand accuse me of red herring? do you understand how red herring works? red herring is an informal fallacy where the opposition make a claim or a topic that has no connection to the discussion, in my response to your selective use of ibn kathir i showed how he is using an abridge interoperation of the third one
i'm going to quote it Again:
"The Third: meaning they had no rain falling and earth had no plant life so god brought rain to heaven, and brought plant life to earth"
now notice how later scholar that i cited that mentions the opinion of majority of scholars (Expand) on this third intepretation:
"If you would know clearly the opinion of the school of interpretation, know this is that the third interpretation is the most accepted one, and it’s based on three of evidence from the Quran:
The first is the people of disbelief saw it, meaning this was a display in front of them, meaning they saw that the sky had no rain falling, and the earth had no plant life, dead, so God brought rain and so behold plant life of different kinds came"
ibn Kathir did the same as Imam Shankiti in his groundbreaking book athwa al baian, as he took the third interpretation and abridge it, imam alshankiti give us the abridge and full account later on, ibn kathir relies on only the abridge one.
ibn abbas on the very link you provided doesn't deny that, let's read your own source again
"So he went to Ibn `Abbas and asked him. Ibn `Abbas said: "Yes, the heavens were joined together and it did not rain, and the earth was joined together and nothing grew. When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.'' "
read this "When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from heavens"
this suggest that life already existed before rain came , which contradicts your moronic statment "Ibn Abbass viewed that early life came with the rain. " which is a strawman to your own source.
https://pastebin.com/LRQSMjaE
Deletehttps://pastebin.com/E3XixKjy
DeleteI'm done with you, go find someone else to troll, and learn English properly before mocking someone spelling.
Deletehttps://pastebin.com/QYzHu53j
Here salam sites a lot of evidence to prove Masked Arab wrong and shows how he deceives others, that's really the point of his blog website. Yet you're still going on a full rant against Islamic apologetics without even bothering to address the points made by salam. This seems quite selfish.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like your only weapon is to whine, not addressing a single point with facts and evidence, just whine about apologetics, why is this like this and why is that like that as if you're making a good point. You should know that interpretation of the Quran/Hadith and deriving from them is based on rigorous process/rulings. This is not a harry potter book where a pre-teenager can state his opinion about this and that as he likes.