Sunday, December 17, 2017

Why The Masked Arab is Masked, Falsehood makes one Bashful, 7 vulgar reasons why TMA left Islam part-3 (A) The Prophet Muhammad Attitudes (did the prophet Allow Rape?)

Introduction:
Continuing from our series on his videos regarding the 7 reasons why he left Islam, today we will tackle the issues raised regarding the Prophet Muhammad and his life, with that being said let us proceed
Note regarding the channel: inshallah when finished with his video that we are tackling this time I shall start working on my channel, the theme will be text on the screen, no voice narration, that will come later.
all sources that are displayed in the video will be sourced in the description, if I had to if youtube won’t allow word limits, I will use this blog as a resource for sources

I will Try and get this blog out as fast as possible to go to my channel as the next source for refutations when I'm done with his video, as you know this video will be dedicated to responding to the accusations TMA brought regarding the life and actions of the prophet Muhammad ﷺ, any allegation that was already refuted in previous articles will not be discussed here, I will rather just leave a link to my article addressing the issue, moving on let us proceed.

Issue #1
@8:45 the masked Arab start with the well-known allegation of the prophet marriage to Aisha (RA)
The masked arab start this section by the following Quote “but there is no doubt if you read the quran, Hadith and his sira, which is his Bioghraphy the man was brutal, to say the least, and no where near the absulot modle of perfection I was taught he was a muslim, the most well-known controversy involving him was for his marriage to his six-year-old girl before consummating the marriage at nine, apologists in this generation know this stand against their values and often try and wriggle out of it by changing the age of Aisha based on indirect calculations emanating from much weaker hadiths, while others claim girls mature faster in hot climates, but I’m not here to cite aisha’s marriage and instade we will focus on other aspects”

Let’s us address the elephant in the room first, he split the apologists into two categories, ones make the argument that she is much older but claims that it’s based on weak hadiths, now I don’t advocate for this argument at all (I used to) but if they are weak prove it, show the sources they use and prove that they are weak, if you are too intellectually lazy to put effort into your videos then don’t expect to be taken seriously by Muslims
As for the second category, note how he didn’t bother to refute it, and instead decided to run away like a coward without actually addressing the response
Now this claim is actually factually correct, this is a historical fact no one can’t deny it, I've already explained how it’s both illogical and scientifically impossible for Muhammad to be considered pedophile in my article[1]

But let us see, how puberty was viewed in history, in fact, each society has its own way of marking puberty that differentiates it from others
Peter N Stearns writes in Childhood in World History:
almost all societies have some way to mark of the age or period in which puberty is usually achievedthe average age of puberty varies greatly from one society to the next (it’s lower in hot climates, and also where food is abundant)  by the same token it can be changed over time; puberty today, in the united states and western Europe occurs four years earlier (or more) than it did on average 200 years ago, some societies view people as adults, or virtually so, when they have completed puberty. In many societies marriage at the age of puberty, particularly for girls, is quite common. Other societies, like our own in contemporary west, still mark off an extended period of childhood.  Some societies have elaborate rituals around puberty; others, like our own (aside from religious confirmation marks), tend to downplay the ceremonial aspects, partly perhaps because they worry about the consequences of puberty for people still regarded as children. The variations and potential changes over time are striking[2]
genetic changes have been noted in Harvard and Cambridge articles as an indication of maturity evolving in history
While the academic article below deals heavily with the effects of genetics makeup in puberty, please feel free to skip it if you don’t want to read some complex scientific terms, it and describes early puberty (which is not what we are addressing) the point here is withered or not there has been genetic changes and makeups to determine the timing of the onset, it does tell us that puberty had no fixed number, and was changing in time

 “A clearer relationship can be drawn between the pace of childhood growth and the timing of puberty. Within populations, children of both sexes who are taller and heavier in middle childhood are more likely to enter puberty earlier. Also, the secular trend toward faster childhood growth through time has been associated with a simultaneous trend toward earlier puberty in both sexes (Ellison1982; Eveleth and Tanner 1991; Cole 2000; Karlberg 2002)..”[3]

These are all scientific facts, if the apologists are claiming that puberty has changed drastically in time, then the masked Arab is on the wrong side of history to completely disagree with such fact, almost all historians and almost all professors of history agree to such fact, you only notice this claim among polemicists like the masked Arab

Nevertheless, my article shall be sufficient enough to deal with the issue, I even dedicated 2 articles regarding pedophilia, that explain why Muhammad can’t be considered a pedophile


Issue #2:
@09:09 the masked arab says “Muhammad was a violent man who leads atleast 30 raids against his opponents and encouraged banditry against trade caravans where his men looted goods and killed travelling merchants, the attacks were unprovoked the vast majority of the time, in some raids muslims attacked villages killing the men and enslaving women and children in one instance battle of Autas muslims captured women as sex slaves and felt it was immoral to have sex with them as they were already marries, so then Muhammad reveals a quranic verse to tell them that having sex with married women is banned with the exception if that married woman is actually your slave, apologetics have a difficult time trying to defend this verse as is clear in the quran and it’s across pretty much all Islamic sources sunni and shia, this is found in sura al-nisa which is chapter 4 and verses 23 and 24, at the beginning of verse 24 we see it says { And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess} so we can clearly see that Muhammad and the Quran encouraged muslim soldiers to rape their female captives even if they were married}
Here I shall provide detailed analysis of this verse, from who were captured to what happened to them
Ok now that is an insane misquotation, let us read the two verses that he called out (note that he didn’t read verse 23)
4:23:
{Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.}

As you can see, the first verse in context, it’s talking about marriage, how the hell did the masked Arab with his unbound dishonesty twist this verse to talk about sex, let alone not showing the context that he associated it with it is beyond me, is this the bright night of ex-Muslims?, apologists have no difficulty here at all, even when I was an atheist I never used this verse and associate it with sexual intercourse
While we do have context to the verse, as the masked Arab cited, but he needs to provide his claims with evidence even when we know about them, given the fact not everyone knows about the story behind this verse

Now large portions will come below, it will deal with what this verse was all about, then, later on, we will deal with the shubha (allegation) that Islam allows rape in short burst of sources, we shall explore the stages when which what sexual relations are allowed, then we shall see if these captives were engaged directly in sexual intercourse without marriage (zina) or were they handed over in marriage? And if they were handed over in marriage was it enforced nonconsensual marriage? We shall explore the issues in short details even as of now the article is already long enough
While to play the devil’s advocate the first word mentioned in verse 4:23 ([for marriage]) is not part of the verse Arabic text, but we shall address it in the tafsir section

Al-Nawawi said in the explination of Sahih Muslim:
اعلم أن مذهب الشافعي ومن قال بقوله من العلماء أن المسبية من عبدة الأوثان وغيرهم من الكفار الذين لا كتاب لهم لا يحل وطؤها بملك اليمين حتى تسلم، فما دامت على دينها فهي محرمة، وهؤلاء المسبيات كن من مشركي العرب عبدة الأوثان، فيؤول هذا الحديث وشبهه على أنهن أسلمن، وهذا التأويل لا بد منه[4]

Translation:
I know from the madhab of Shafi’I and what the majority of scholars say regarding the right hand possess who are the polytheists and worshipers of the stones and others are Kufar infidels who had no book, and having sex with them is prohibited until they are muslims, if she remained on her religion then she is prohibited to have sex with, and those captives were among the polytheises (reffering to 4:24) who worshiped the stones, so interpreted from this hadith is that they might have converted to islam, and that is an interpretation that is the most probable one

أن من حرم نكاح حرائرهم من المجوسيات وسائر الكوافر سوى أهل الكتاب لا يباح وطء الإماء منهن بملك اليمين في قول أكثر أهل العلم، منهم: مرة الهمذاني والزهري وسعيد بن جبير والأوزاعي والثوري وأبو حنيفة ومالك والشافعي ، وقال ابن عبد البر على هذا جماعة فقهاء الأمصار وجمهور العلماء وما خالفه فشذوذ.”[5]
Translation:
 who prohibited the marriage of free and majority of Kufar except for people of the book, it’s not allowed to have sex with captives as in the opinion of the majority of people of knowledge among them: Al-Hamthani, Al-Zuhri, Sa’id bin Jarir, Al-Awzai, Al-Thuri, Abu Hanifa, and Al-Shafi’I, and Ibn Abd Al-bir said regarding this is the majority of Fuqaha and majority of scholars, and those who disagreed are mere abnormality

If Muslims and the prophet all that they cared about is sexual pleasure, then please for any nonmuslim reading this, answer this question:
Why didn’t the prophet let alone the scholars allowed having sex with the polytheists?, here Muslims will have sexual pleasure with two types of women, the Muslims and non muslims if they truly seek pleasure, why didn’t the prophet and the scholars allow sex with polytheists if they are such sexual predators as TMA and his fans claim?

Now that we understand that this verse is talking about marriage and not sex, Let’s look at what scholars said :
According to Ibn Kathir, the women you have sexual intercourse with must be set free.
"قال عمر بن عبد البر عن اياس بن عمار, سألت علي ابن ابي طالب فقلت: أن لي أختين مما ملكت يميني أتخذت أحدهما سرية فولدت لي أولاد ثم رغبت في الأخرى فما أصنع؟ فقال علي رضي الله عنه. تعتق التي كنت تطأ ثم تطأ الأخرى..."[6]
Translation:
Umar bin abid al bir said from Ayas bin Amar, I asked Ali bin Abi Talib so I said: I had two sisters of my right hand possess (sister here means sister in Islam) I took one of them as captives so she gave me a boy, then I desired the other one so what do I do? Ali (blessings of God be upon him) said: you must set free the one you had sex with, then the other one
While Ibn Kathir later on did say that sexual intercourse is permitted with them if you check for menstruation (يعيني ألا ملكتموهن بالسبي فأنه يحل لكم وطؤهن اذا استبرأتموهن  (to make sure that they are not pregnant, he does say this is the opinion of Imam Ahmed bin Abi Sa’id, but let us put that in perspective, and explore the conditions of sexual intercourse, is it permissible to have sexual intercourse with non muslims?

According to a narration from al-Tabari in a Sahih hadith
حدثني يعقوب بن أبراهيم, قال حدثنا أبن علية عن خالد عن عكرمة عن أبن عباس قال: طلاق الأمة ست: بيعها طلاقها, و عتقها طلاقها وهبتها طلاقها, و براءتها طلاقها, و طلاق زوجها طلاقها"[7]
Translation:
Ya’qub bin Ibrahim told me, said ibn Alia from Khalid from ‘Ukrama from Ibn Abbas said: the divorce of the captive is six: selling her is her divorce, setting her free is her diverse, giving her away is her divorce, he innocence is her divorce, and her husband divorce is her divorce

What is meant above is that a captive goes under six conditions for divorce, one of them the last one is the divorce of her husband makes her divorce, that is exactly what happened to the captives of Awtas, as their mere capture inhibited the contract between their husbands and them.
Furthermore

Does Islam permit Marriage with Polytheist women (including those mentioned in the allegation)?:
"وحرمت عليكم النساء المزوجات فلا يحل لكم التزوج بهن أثناء كونهن مزوجات ألا أمراة ملكتها يمينكم بالسبي.... و هذا قول كثير أهل العلم"[8]
Translation:
It’s prohibited for you the married women so it’s not rightful for you to marry them since they are married, except for your right hand possess…. And that is the opinion of the majority of people of knowledge (scholars)
Continuing on:
"كما قال النووي رحمه الله: و المزوجات حرام على غير أزواجهن ألا ملكتم بالسبي, فأنه يفسخ نكاح زوجها الكافر و تحل لكم اذا انقضى أستبرائوها"[9]
Translation:
As Imam Nawawi said: and the married women are forbidden on men who are not their husbands, except for your right hand possess, this violates her marriage contract with her infidel husband and it’s allowed for you to marry them when their menstruation pass on
This is further reinforced by verse 2:221
{And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe.}
4:3
{And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].}

4:25
{And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}

The common denominator here is the concept of Wat’ bill nukah
Meaning sexual intercourse with marriage, the common theme that one might read from some of the readings is that this permit sexual intercourse, but is sexual intercourse without marriage? Are Muslims permitted to have sexual intercourse with female slaves without marrying them?
There is a word for this, it’s سفاح or also known as Zina
Meaning having sexual intercourse with a woman without marrying her
According to Lisan Al-Arab the most authentic Arabic-Arabic dictionary
وهو أَن تقيم امرأَةٌ مع رجل على فجور من غير تزويج صحيح[10]
Translation:
It’s for a woman to commit sexual intercourse on privet parts without marriage
And at no point did we see any of the above tradition permit the practice of safah let alone mention it, even when scholars like Imam Nawawi stated that these women were converted then got married, this is evidence that sexual intercourse without marriage (سفاح) was not permitted at all, this practice is not mentioned anywhere even in ibn Kathir commentary that permitted sexual intercourse
So now as we progress we are getting a more clear picture of what verse 24 is talking about, but for the sake of more clarity we will see more scholars opinions
According to Ibn Taymiah in his groundbreaking book Majmu’ alfatawa
"(أو ما ملكت أيمانكم) و أنما يمتنع الوطء بسبب يوجب التحريم, ان تكون محرمة بالرضع, او بالصهر, أو بالشرك و نحو ذالك"[11]

Translation:
{or your right hand possess} it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on

Meaning it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with her until she convert

But that begs the question, the same question I had before if Muslims are such sexual predators, why not allow to have sex even with polytheists?
Why put so many limits and regulations regarding marriage and sexual intercourse prohibiting them.

Now don’t take my word for it, take the word of The Shaikh of Islam Ibn Taymia in his book majmu’ al-fatawa, one of the greatest scholars in the history of Islam regarding the  issue or marriage and sexual intercourse, he stated the following:
"وقال تعالى (يا أيها الذين آمنوا لا يحل لكم أن ترثوا النساء كرها ولا تعضلوهن لتذهبوا ببعض ما آتيتموهن) فقد ذكر ان تراضي بالمعروف و الأمساك بالمعروف و التسريح بالمعروف, و المعاشرة بالمعروف, و أن لهن و عليهن بالمعروف كما قال : (رزقهن وكسوتهن بالمعروف) , فهذا المذكور في القرأن هو الواجب العدل في جميع ما يتعلق بالنكاح من أمور النكاح و حقوق الزوجين, فكما أن ما يجب للمرأة عليهمن الرزق و الكسوة هو بالمعروف, و هو العرف الذب يعرفه الناس في حالهما نوعا و قدر وصفة......وكذالك يجب عليه من المتعة و العشرة فعليه يبيت عندها, و يطأها بالمعروف, و يختلف ذللك باختلاف حالها و حاله, و هذا أصح القولين في الوطء الواجب انه مقدار المعروف"[12]
Translation:
As god said {O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them.} it was mentioned that having a firm and kind relationship and stand firm by kindness and equality, and having intimate relationship with kindness, and for them as it’s on them rights as he said { and their clothing according to what is acceptable} since this is mentioned in the quran it’s obligatory to deal equalily and kindly in all manners of marriage (including sex) and the rights of both spouses, as it’s obligatory to bestow upon the wife of clothing and spending with equality, and this is the equality that people know on both types in quantity and discription……and that is also related to pleasure and sex and intimate relationship , it’s obligoty upon him to give her house, and establish a sexual relation with equity and kindness, this differs according to her situation and his, and that is the most authentic among scholars regarding sexual relation it’s duty that it’s established with fairness”

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any mention of “rape her as long as you desire” above, this is the shaikh of Islam ibn Taymiyyah Granted, this title of Shaikh of Islam is not exclusive to ibn taymia, many scholars like Imam Nawawi (which we mentioned above) ibn Hajar al asqalani, and Ahmed ibn Hanbal and many others shared the same title

So, in short, we established that these women didn’t engage in sexual intercourse without marriage (safih or zina), but rather they converted from polytheism to Islam according to the majority of scholars, from there we need to establish the Hukum or ruling of sexual relations within marriage, and we did so above from Ibn Taymia who was addressing the issue of sexual relations with slaves and captives
Hadiths From the Prophet Prohibiting and preventing Compulsion including rape:
There is also a Hasan Hadith from the prophet punishing a man who forced himself on a woman
“Narrated 'Alqamah bin Wa'il Al-Kindi:
From his father: "A women went out during the time of the Prophet () to go to Salat, but she was caught by a man and he had relations with her, so she screamed and he left. Then a man came across her and she said: 'That man has done this and that to me', then she came across a group of Emigrants (Muhajirin) and she said: 'That man did this and that to me.' They went to get the man she thought had relations with her, and they brought him to her. She said: 'Yes, that's him.' So they brought him to the Messenger of Allah (), and when he ordered that he be stoned, the man who had relations with her, said: 'O Messenger of Allah, I am the one who had relations with her.' So he said to her: 'Go, for Allah has forgiven you.' Then he said some nice words to the man (who was brought). And he said to the man who had relations with her: 'Stone him.' Then he said: 'He has repented a repentance that, if the inhabitants of Al-Madinah had repented with, it would have been accepted from them.'"”[13]
Granted this story is mentioned in Sunan Abu Dawood, al Albani said that the word “stone” probably didn’t exist, never the less, not one protested to this source from Jam’ al Tirmidhi
I honestly can’t fathem the overwhelming sources and arguments in Islamic jursipudence against Ikrah Bil zina (compulsory sex) are complety against it, yet I’m so shocked to see not a single instance of rape in Islamic sources have ever been recorded let alone recorded without having the man punished, not to mention the countless sources contesting against it and the quran already addressing it both in 4:19 and 24:33, Yet TMA with all his cowardness and his dishonesty comes with these load words claiming Muhammad or islam allows rape in general, and he couldn’t even come up with a single story of a man raping a woman without getting punished

Another Hadith from the prophet Prohibiting compulsion on all of its Kinds

There are two hadiths with two different mutations regarding the words, but both share the same words
First hadith
“On the authority of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
Verily Allah has pardoned [or been lenient with] for me my Ummah: their mistakes, their forgetfulness, and that which they have been forced to do under duress. A Hasan hadeeth related by Ibn Majah, and al-Bayhaqee and others.”[14]
Authentication: Hasan
Second Hadith
“It was narrated from Ibn 'Abbas that the Prophet (
) said :
"Allah has forgiven my nation for mistakes and forgetfulness, and what they are forced to do."”[15]
authentication: Sahih (authentic)
Now, what does Forgiven my nation for mistakes or pardoned them means? For that we need to see what scholars of interpretation have examined on one of these hadiths
"وقوله (رفع الله عن أمتي الخطأ و النسيان) المراد به: رفع حكمه......وقيل: المراد (به): رفع حكمه الذي هو المؤاخدة.....و قد كان يفهم من قولهم (رفعت عنك الخطأ): المؤاخذة به و العقاب"[16]

Translation:
And what is meant by the prophet “God has forgiven for my nation from mistakes and forgetfulness” meaning: the judgment of these actions and mistakes were left……and it was said: what is meant here is the Hukum judgment which is accountability….. it was also understood from (I pardoned you of your mistake) meaning accountability and punishment

Furthermore a  much more striking explanation:
"حك الخطأ والنسيان والمكره عليه فغير مرفوع فلو أتلف شيئاً خطأ أو ضاعت منه الوديعة نسياناً ضمن. ويستثنى من الاكراه: الاكراه على الزنا والقتل فـلا يباحان بالاكراه"[17]
Translation:
And regarding the mistakes and forgetfulness and what was forced upon and what has been inserted on, if it was corrupted as a mistake or lost due to forgetfulness, and what has been made exceptional Duo to compulsions such as compulsion and forced sex, and forced murder these are not allowed  if they were forced


Conclusion:
I have decided to end the article here, it’s already long enough, I shall address the rest of the issues made by the masked Arab regarding the prophet Muhammad attitude in the next article



[2] Childhood in World History By Peter N Stearns, Professor of History and Provost Introduction page.3
[3] Puberty as a life history transition By Peter T. Ellisona, Meredith W. Reichesa, Heather Shattuck-Faegrea, Alicia Breakeya, Martina Konecnab,Samuel Urlachera& Victoria Wobberaa Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA, and bDepartment of Zoology,University of South Bohemia, Budwais, Czech Republic, page.4
[4] Sharih Sahih Muslim 1456 by Imam Nawawi
[5] Al-Maqni By Ibn Qudama Vol.9 Page.552
[6] Tayser Al’Ali Al-Qadir fi Ikhtisar Tafsir Ibn Kathri, by Ibn Kathir vol.1 page.373
[7] Jami’ Ahkam Al-Nisa vol.3 page.112
[8] Ibid page.114
[9] ibid
[11] Majmu’ Al-Fataw By Shikh of Islam Ibn Taymia vol.32 chap.12 page.117
[12] Ibid page.55
[13] Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1454
[14] Ibn Maja 40 Hadith Nawawi 39
[15] Ibn Maja Vol. 3, Book 10, Hadith 2045
[16] Rawtha Al-Nathar Wa jana Al-Manthar By Muafaq al Din Almaqdisi (imam Ibn Qudama) page.223
[17] Alkutub Al-Arba’in By Imam Nawawi page.80

66 comments:

  1. Did he cite any tafseer on this subject in his video?

    ReplyDelete
  2. The tafsirs&hadiths are saying that the companions were reluctant to have sex with the women because they were married,then this ayah (4:24) came and they became halal. No mention of converting or marriage, that's the interpretation of later scholars. There is no narration saying they converted to islam.
    ""Some of the Companions of Apostle of Allaah (ﷺ) were reluctant to have relations with the female captives because of their pagan husbands. So, Allaah the exalted sent down the Qur’anic verse “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand posses.” This is to say that they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."" http://quranx.com/Hadith/AbuDawud/DarusSalam/Hadith-2155/


    After all, they are female prisoners of war who are seen as "ma malakat aymanukum" and you are allowed to have sex without marriage,with the right of ownership.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "that's the interpretation of later scholars. "
      your point? and what are your evidence?
      "There is no narration saying they converted to islam."
      i have already addressed that

      "After all, they are female prisoners of war who are seen as "ma malakat aymanukum" and you are allowed to have sex without marriage,with the right of ownership."
      again i have already addressed that, read the article

      Delete
    2. I want answers
      Where did you address these? If you read the hadith I gave, you will see there is no mention of converting, these interpretations have no hadith as evidence implying this. Where is the narration saying they converted? The ayah is about marrying and then it says married women are haram except slaves,again there is no citation about them converting, the hadith just says "they became halal". What is your evidence they converted when there is nothing like that in hadiths? Where is the evidence of these scholars? This ayah 4:23 does not say that, its just interpretation. We discussed this before..

      And we all know what ma malakat aymanukum means,scholars agree that they are halal,without marriage. This is a well known fact, idk what u mean "i addressed that"? There are so many verses and hadiths on this, and today muslim preachers are giving lectures and writing books to justify it,since its confusing lots of people. I dont even need to cite reference for this. Discussing with you is really tiring sometimes.

      Delete
    3. "I want answers"
      you didn't want answers, you made premises without conclusion, which is not an argument, you also made claims that require proof and now you run from it, i asked you for your evidence that "that's the interpretation of later scholars. " is true, you still didn't provide it, don't try and shift the goal post
      "Where did you address these?"
      In the article above, did you just read the title and describe to comment without reading?
      "If you read the hadith I gave, you will see there is no mention of converting"
      i did, and i already addressed it with sources, imam nawawi said this is the interpretation of the 4 major schools of though in sunni tradition, now go complain to all of them not to me
      "these interpretations have no hadith as evidence implying this"
      yes they do, Imam nawawi and Ibn Taymia provided them in their issue regarding the verse (which i cited)

      "The ayah is about marrying and then it says married women are haram except slaves,again there is no citation about them converting,"
      because this is a quranic verse, it doesn't deal with historical context nor does it cite it, and now i shall play your game
      show me in the hadith where does it say that the muslims had sexual intercourse with the captives

      "the hadith just says "they became halal". What is your evidence they converted "
      you have repeated that for the third time, i have provided 2 sources from the 2 major scholars of islam imam nawawi and ibn taymia

      "when there is nothing like that in hadiths? "
      again it doesn't deal with historical context, this is Called Asbab Al-nizul, (the reasons for the revelations) the hadith mentions why the verse was revealed Not about the incidence
      "Where is the evidence of these scholars?"
      read their books that i cited

      "This ayah 4:23 does not say that, its just interpretation. We discussed this before.."
      the aya doesn't mention at any point the battle of awtas, nor the historical story at all.
      the hadith you cited gives reasons for the revelations (Again reasons for the revelation, Not what happened, there is no mention at all of sexual intercourse)

      asbab al nizul doesn't give you the historical incident in the full picture, it just tell you why the verse was revealed, not what happened

      "And we all know what ma malakat aymanukum means,scholars agree that they are halal,without marriage. "
      this is false, this is called Sifah, and i have already addressed that, this is the secound time i repeat this

      "According to Ibn Taymiah in his groundbreaking book Majmu’ alfatawa
      "(أو ما ملكت أيمانكم) و أنما يمتنع الوطء بسبب يوجب التحريم, ان تكون محرمة بالرضع, او بالصهر, أو بالشرك و نحو ذالك"[11]

      Translation:
      {or your right hand possess} it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on"

      "According to Ibn Taymiah in his groundbreaking book Majmu’ alfatawa
      "(أو ما ملكت أيمانكم) و أنما يمتنع الوطء بسبب يوجب التحريم, ان تكون محرمة بالرضع, او بالصهر, أو بالشرك و نحو ذالك"[11]

      Translation:
      {or your right hand possess} it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on"

      it's clear to me that you only noticed the title and decided to make this comment, you are clearly unaware of what i wrote

      "There are so many verses and hadiths on this,"
      show me one verse that says explicitly that you can marry what ever you want, including polytheists

      "Discussing with you is really tiring sometimes."
      discussing with a simpleton like you who didn't read the sources i gave and the quranic verses that clearly says not to marry polytheists "
      This is further reinforced by verse 2:221
      {And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe.}"

      is what is tiring, i completely wasted 2 minutes of my time writing this

      Delete
    4. These scholars interpret the ayah ,then the hadith accordingly. There is no hadith saying they converted, you are repeteadly telling me scholars interpreted so but what we know from the hadith i gave,no mention of converting. It tells us what happened and then the ayah was revealed,like,this happened then this ayah came. Companions were reluctant bcs they were married then the ayah came, that's all we know, the hadith mentions the historical context here. "Interpretation of later scholars", i mean they have no narration about converting,they are just making guesses about the event. Why are we assuming things happened while we have no evidence? Why is that so hard to understand?

      When the hadith ends with "they became halal" without a reference to marriage or converting, then we can understand the muslims were allowed to have sex. It does not directly say they did but its understood, *after all why did they ask Muhammad about it if they didnt think about sex?* what could be the reason? even if they didnt, i question the morality here; having sex with a married woman. She has a husband after all, how would he feel?

      ""it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on""
      If they are not family related ,pregnant or so, they are halal. Im trying to say this. Also I never said it says marry polytheists. Im just talking abt this particular ayah and hadith here (4:24)

      I remember you not establishing my comment bcs its "offensive" (while not) , look who is talking now


      Delete
    5. "There is no hadith saying they converted,"
      this is going to be my final reply to you, i gave you two sources clearly citing that they were converted yet you keep ramble on this hadith which gives absolutely nothing
      I cited a verse to you 2:221 that clearly debunks your entire comment, cited two major scholars who are named the shaikhs of islam, yet you keep rambling on "this hadith doesn't say they converted" which i already said this hadith is called asbab al nizul, the full story lise in the battle of awtas, this hadith gives only the reason why the verse was revealed, not the story in general
      "you are repeatedly telling me scholars interpreted so"
      no i did not said that, i cited two sources one in interpretation one mentions historical context, and a verse that clearly state you can't marry a polytheists until they convert, which was revealed before chapter 4
      "It tells us what happened"
      no it does not, it's asbab al nizul, not tarikh and qaswa, reasons of revelation not historical context, seriously how hard is that for you to grasp?
      "that's all we know, the hadith mentions the historical context here."
      thank you for destroying your own comments for me, you just admitted that you have no backing no evidence that sexual intercourse happened before marrige let alone sex itself with the captives aquried
      "i mean they have no narration"
      yes they do, this will be the last time i repeat it, read the books i gave, along with the sources i gave
      Ibn Taymyah explained verse 4:24, and Imam nawawi said the same, seriously i just cited them 3 times to you now, and you refuse to read them
      "Why are we assuming things happened while we have no evidence? "
      assuming? you are the one making the claim that muslims raped the female captives in awtas, the burden of proof is on you
      "When the hadith ends with "they became halal" without a reference to marriage or converting, then we can understand the muslims were allowed to have sex. "
      already addressed again, read the sources above they discuss what it meant by Halal
      "It does not directly say they did but its understood,"
      then why are you asserting that they were raped?
      "*after all why did they ask Muhammad about it if they didnt think about sex?*"
      because they seek muhammad words on the matter, will you not ask him yourself if you were on their shoes to know his opinion?
      "what could be the reason? "
      because they don't know if they were halal or not, so they ask for advice from the prophet
      "even if they didnt, i question the morality here; having sex with a married woman. She has a husband after all, how would he feel? "
      i have already addressed that, this is called Safih سفح it's not allowed in islam again 2:221 and ibn taymia and imam nawawi addressed these issues
      """it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on""
      If they are not family related ,pregnant or so, they are halal. Im trying to say this. Also I never said it says marry polytheists. Im just talking abt this particular ayah and hadith here (4:24)
      I remember you not establishing my comment bcs its "offensive" (while not) , look who is talking now"
      are you drunk? don't you see your comment approved? i have allowed all your comments to show up so far.
      and why did you delete the last type of this source? it says clearly at the end if they were polytheists they are not allowed to have sexual intercourse with
      Now again how do you explain 2:221? and how do you explain the two scholars who said clearly that this is the opinion of the 4 major schools of thought, meaning the ijma' general consensus of ulama, you are going clearly against the overwhelming majority of scholars in islamic thought, might be all of them infact since we already have the general consensus here

      Delete
    6. """Ibn Taymyah explained verse 4:24, and Imam nawawi said the same""
      i have just read the whole article again ,still not found any evidence or narration about converting or marriage, all they say is scholars understood the event that way,just comments.


      ""i have already addressed that, this is called Safih سفح it's not allowed in islam ""

      Yes it is. if you captive a married woman (if christian or jew, you say) you can have sex with them without marriage,bcs she is ma malakat aymanukum. Scholars,in comment 4:24, say being captive annuls her marriage and she becomes your "right hand posseses"

      ""save what your right hands own of captured slave girls whom you may have sexual intercourse with even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy after the completion of one menstrual cycle"" http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=24&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2



      Im saying i find this immoral.


      Btw i was talking abt one year ago,you deleted my comment here

      Delete
    7. "still not found any evidence or narration about converting or marriage,"
      Let's Ignore the fact that your Own Source, your own link just refuted you
      "all that that is except what He has forbidden you of women is that you seek women using your wealth by way of a dowry or a price in wedlock and not fornicating in illicitly. Such wives as you enjoy thereby and have had sexual intercourse with"
      clearly state here that this is in duo to wives, You are not allowed to have sex with women you are not married to
      but using your own logic on you, this tafsir doesn't prove anything, because there is no "narration" mentioned in the text

      Read your own link where it clearly refer to them as "wives"

      "
      Yes it is. if you captive a married woman (if christian or jew, you say) you can have sex with them without marriage,bcs she is ma malakat aymanukum. "
      Ma Malakat Yamin means : "captives of war
      not "a woman you can have sex with without marriage" seriously where are you coming up with this nonsense

      more sources:
      "and the second condition: those who should not be engaged in marriage and sex of right hand possess like the polytheists, and that was the opinion of maliki and shafii and other schools of though...as for the captive of the people of the book, there is no conflict that having sex with her with the condition that she should be married is there"
      source:
      majmu' fataw vol.32 page.116

      "regarding captives, and according to the majority of scholars, if he desire sex with her it is only permissible when she is married"
      Source:
      Alqawanin al-fiqhya by the classical imam ibn jazi al kalbi page.130
      read 60:10


      I'm done with you now, you failed to listen to every source i said, you literally ignored the verse i cited that refute your comment, you didn't answer any of the questions i had for you, you made a claim "that's the interpretation of later scholars. " that i asked for evidence of, you didn't bring it so far, you systematically ignored every quranic verse i cited for you, and instead focused on "deny deny deny deny" in the face of growing evidence, you lack of understanding of what asbab al nizul is, you made the assertion that they were raped and i asked you for evidence you didn't bring one, you asked for sources that they were converted i gave you two quranic verses and now i brought a third new one that i didn't mention in the article, then i cited three other sources, and now 2 new sources from scripture that backup my claim
      that makes it 3 quranic passages and 4 scripture sources (2 new ones that were not mentioned in the article, and a new verse) and so far all what you do is deny again with no logical or argument or source to backup your assertion that they were raped and not married, and so far all your sources have blown up in your face, your hadith doesn't prove your claim, you cited a tafsir (which according to your logic still doesn't even provide a narration that they had sex) which you misquoted and took out of context which later blown on you, you should do a better job at defending TMA

      and BTW i don't delete comment unless they are insults

      I'm done with you

      Delete
    8. ""not "a woman you can have sex with without marriage" seriously where are you coming up with this nonsense""

      How can u say that? All scholars agree on that. If you read tafsirs of the verses about ma malakat aymanukum, all say you can have sex with them without marriage. There are so many hadiths on this also. This is a well known fact and as i said before muslim preachers are giving lectures to justify it ,like umar suleiman. Just look at here: https://islamqa.info/en/12562

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L1_ikJRVnM8

      I can give you so many more references.

      Delete
    9. i'm lost for words at the audacity they you have, going so far and ignore literally every source i cited, and going so far and misrepresent what the term say, and cite a website from islamqa that doesn't backup what you say at all
      "How can u say that? All scholars agree on that"
      yet another silly claim with no evidence at all, what makes it even more hilarious is that this guy thinks the link to islamQA actually claim you can have sex with captives without marriage, *the link address the question if you have to marry a right hand possess if you own one, not can you have sex with right hand possess without marriage*, can't this guy cite one link one source without misquoting and strawmaing their arguments?
      the subject of the article "can you have a right hand possess without marrying them?" not "can you have sex with right hand possess without marriage?"
      "I can give you so many more references."
      i'm sure you can, please feel free to cite more sources out of context and strawman and misrepresent what they say like you did here in Islamqa website, please in the future make sure to ignore all the sources i provide and not refute a single one of them, 3 verses and 4 secondary scholarly sources all citing general consensuses, and you failed to even try and tackle one of them let alone make a comment on a single verse


      i'm lost for words, you are officially worse than the masked arab who ever you are
      you are not gonna get any more attention from me unless you try and refute all my sources

      Delete
    10. Im not discussing the issue in the article now.

      Im just talking abt your claim "you cant have sex with ur slaves". I mean this is something everyone accept,but you reject that. If you type ma malakat aymanukum on youtube you will see scholars talking abt it(i posted one). If you do a little research you will see that noone denies it.

      Surah Al-Muminun (23:6) and Surah Al-Maarij (70:30) both, in identical wording, draw a distinction between spouses and "those whom one's right hands possess" (female slaves), saying " أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ" (literally, "their spouses or what their right hands possess"), while clarifying that sexual intercourse with either is permissible


      ""Ibn Qudaamah said:
      There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman,
      [al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30] "" http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10382&date=2011-06-13


      ""Then Allah says,
      (And those who guard their private part (chastity).) meaning, they keep their private parts away from that which is forbidden and they prevent their private parts from being put into other than what Allah has allowed them to be in. This is why Allah says

      (Except from their wives or their right hand possessions) meaning, from their female slaves."" http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/70.30


      And this hadith says sahaba wanted to have sex with slaves after capturing them,Muhammad didnt oppose::"FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371
      We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".


      I obviously put the wrong link there,
      This is the one i mean: https://islamqa.info/en/20802


      No marriage needed,this is slave-owner relation



      And see after ayah 4:24 here: http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=23&to=25

      ""A soldier may have sexual relations only with that woman who has been entrusted to him by the government.

      (3) It is not necessary for female captives of war to be People of the Book in order that sexual relations with them be permitted. The man to whom such a woman is entrusted has the right to have sexual relations with her regardless of her religious affiliations.

      (4) Only that person to whom a female captive has been entrusted has the right to have sexual relations with her.

      This is ur quote:"According to Ibn Taymiah in his groundbreaking book Majmu’ alfatawa
      Translation:
      {or your right hand possess} it’s not permissible to have sexual intercourse with them based on if they were pregnant, or family related, or polytheist, and so on"". it says "based on ...", if they are not pregnant,family related or polytheist,sex is allowed, if they are, not allowed. It does not say its not allowed at all.


      And this: https://islamqa.info/en/20085


      I mean,there is no disagreement on this issue. Like here umar suleiman just tries to defend it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pR50Lw_16zo not saying anything like "there is no such thing"

      You will see this whichever islamic book you look at.








      Delete
    11. "Im not discussing the issue in the article now."
      if you are not gonna discuss the issues in the article which are related to your comment, and reply to my sources then don't expect a refutation from me

      especially since you just strawmanned and misrepresented my entire article by making this comment, at no point did i said you can't have sex with captives at all, i said according to the overwhelming majority of scholars you can't have sex with captives unless you marry them

      Delete
    12. Oh god..
      my quotes&and scholars are saying no need marriage,since wives and Slaves are seen as two diffirent categories,as in the verses i referenced. No mention of marriage,they mention intercourse with ma malakat aymanukum (or captives), not wife.
      Again i can show more references
      Why did You skip my all quotes as if they are irrelevant to what im trying to say?

      Delete
    13. "Why did You skip my all quotes as if they are irrelevant to what im trying to say?"
      because
      1-you strawmanned my argument, at no point did i said sexual intercourse with captives are not permissible, I SAID **according to the majority of scholars and people of knowledge and according to the 4 major schools of thought you can't have sex without marriage even with captives**
      2-**"you are not gonna get any more attention from me **unless you try and refute all my sources**"**

      Delete
    14. Im not talking abt the verse 4:24 now. Im talking abt the term "ma malakat aymanukum" ,not about other issues in the article so stop telling me to refute ur sources. We dont understand each other.

      ""At no point did i said sexual intercourse with captives are not permissible""

      I didnt say u said so ,but;

      ""you can't have sex without marriage even with captives"""

      Well that's what i want to show you,im quoting verses,hadiths and scholars to show that ur wrong. Intercourse with them without marriage is OK. That's what im saying here. No strawmaning. read my text and see nobody says marriage required.

      Another quote from islamqa: ""The LEGAL possession that a Muslim receives over a slave woman from the ?Ameerul-Mu’mineen? (the Islamic Head of State) gives him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession, just as the marriage ceremony gives him legal credence to have coition with his wife. In other words, this LEGAL POSSESSION is, in effect, a SUBSTITUTE of the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. A free woman cannot be ‘possessed’, bought or sold like other possessions; therefore Shariat instituted a ‘marriage ceremony’ in which affirmation and consent takes place, which gives a man the right to copulate with her. On the other hand, a slave girl can be possessed and even bought and sold, thus, this right of possession, substituting as a marriage ceremony, entitles the owner to copulate with her. ""

      No need marriage, possesion (ownership) makes relation lawful. That's clear. https://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/29160

      That's something clear and well-known. Ur clearly mistaken here,and you still reject it,ignoring my quotes.

      Delete
    15. You just can't stop citing sources that destroys you will you ?
      From your own source:
      "Although the owner himself cannot get married to his slave woman, without giving her freedom, he can get her married to someone else. If he gets her married to someone else, then only her husband can now have intercourse with her and the owner’s right of having intercourse with her comes to an end. All these facts prove that the slave girl does not become an instrument of sex; on the contrary, her honour is upheld, in that only one man is allowed to have intercourse with her JUST AS only one man (the husband) is allowed to have intercourse with his lawfully wedded wife."

      "im quoting verses,hadiths and scholars"
      No you didn't, you cited only 4:24 and hadith of awtas
      And neither of them say you can have sex with captives outside marriage
      Not a single verse not a single hadith was cited yet you ignored all my sources and all my verses that clearly state otherwise
      3 verses and 4 legal scripture sources that state the overwhelming majority of scholars agree you can't have sex with captives unless you marry them

      "now. Im talking abt the term "ma malakat aymanukum" ,not about other issues in the article so stop telling me to refute ur sources. We dont understand each other."
      My articles TACKLES the issues we are talking about and you failed to refute a single source i cited
      While I on the other hand dispite saying I'm done responding to you have systematicly refuted and turned every source you cited on you

      Delete
    16. ""the owner’s right of having intercourse with her comes to an end.""

      So he has right to have intercourse without marriage but if she marries another man ,his right ends. How does that destroy me here? It says "his right to intercourse". How does destroy me really? Im saying the same thing since yesterday. He has right to have sex without intercourse, it does not mention marriage again.


      Read my sources and quotes in my latest posts please im not gonna repeat myself, they all talk about intercourse with slaves without marriage. You dont understand me, maybe its my weak english or yours,you are saying same things. Im not talking abt the verse 4:24 in particular here, Im just trying to say sexual intercourse with slaves without marriage is permissible, i quoted the hadiths and scholars, idk how you still say they dont prove anything? Read my last quote it says ",him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession"" not by marriage, BY MERE POSSESION. Pls read my quotes again and see noone mentions marriage,u can have sex with slaves without marriage, that's why that's confusing lots of people and muslims try to justify it.

      ""4) Only that person to whom a female captive has been entrusted has the right to have sexual relations with her."" Again no marriage,just ownership. Why ru still not understanding ,idk how i can be more clear, i give quotes abt my point you still reject me? The ayah says "except wifes and right hand posses", i gave the tafsir, it says sex other than these is haram, NOT these,wifes and slaves. Slaves are not seen as wifes here

      Really if you still dont understand me, idk how i can express myself more clearly

      Delete
    17. i'm at lost for words now, my reply:
      https://pastebin.com/xgz3XXwj

      your comments will be allowed so long as they are not insults, but now for real don't expect further replies from me

      Delete
    18. Maududi 23:6-7:

      (1) Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in one's possession, i.e. slave-girls. *Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relations with one's slave-girl as with one's wife. the basis being possession and not marriage.* If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately. Some modern commentators, who dispute the permissibility of having sexual relations with the slave-girl, argue from An-Nisa' (IV) : 25 to prove that one can have sexual relations with a slave-girl only after entering wedlock with her, because that verse enjoins that if a person cannot afford to marry a free Muslim woman, he may marry a Muslim slave-girl. But these commentators have a strange characteristic: they accept a part of a verse if it suits them, but conveniently ignore another part of the same verse if it goes against their wish and whim. The law about marrying the slave-girls as enunciated in IV :25 reads: "....you may marry them with the permission of their guardians and give them their fair dowries." Obviously the person under reference here is not the master of the slave girl himself but the person who cannot afford to marry a free Muslim woman, and therefore, wants to marry a slave-girl, who is in the possession of another person. For if the question had been of marrying one's own slave-girl, who would then be the "guardian" whose permission would have to be sought? Then, the interpretation they give of this verse contradicts other verses dealing with the same subject in the Qur'an. A sincere person who wants to understand the Qur'anic law in this regard should study An-Nisa' (IV); 3, 25; AI-Ahzab (XXXIII): S0, 52, and Al-Ma`arij (LXX): 30 together with this verse of Al-Mu'minun. (For further explanation, see E.N. 44 of An-Nisa).""

      AGAIN: **Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relations with one's slave-girl as with one's wife. *the basis being possession and not marriage.If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately.**

      That should put an end now
      http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/23/index.html

      Delete
    19. Oh,really?

      That quote clearly confirms me, with open and clear sentences. Having intercourse with slaves without marriage is OK.
      It Leaves no room to another interpretation.


      Anyway,even if you dont answer,the readers will see who is right now.

      Delete
    20. What part of "I'm done responding to you" you don't understand? do you have any respect for my request? or are you just trolling and trying to drag me with you, i could of course expose you yet again for misunderstanding the tafsir of Maudi (which is only available in english and urdo) the fact that you quoted a verse where he talks about Mut'a and Not marrige, in particle these paranthasis talks about the mut'a verse

      "That quote clearly confirms me, with open and clear sentences. Having intercourse with slaves without marriage is OK.
      It Leaves no room to another interpretation."
      now I'm going to break my word for the third time when i said I'm done responding to you

      NOW answer the following:
      1-do we have ijma' general consensus of scholars that you can have sex without marriage? and if so where is your evidence?
      2-is it linked to Mut'a (like the tafsir you cited)?
      3-do we have narrations from the scholars to confirm this position?

      answer the above 3 questions and don't cower away from my sources:
      "and the second condition: those who should not be engaged in marriage and sex of right hand possess like the polytheists, and that was the opinion of maliki and shafii and other schools of though...as for the captive of the people of the book, there is no conflict that having sex with her with the condition that she should be married is there"
      source:
      majmu' fataw vol.32 page.116

      "regarding captives, and **according to the majority of scholars**, if he desire sex with her it is only permissible when she is married"
      Source:
      Alqawanin al-fiqhya by the classical imam ibn jazi al kalbi page.130
      read 60:10

      "Anyway,even if you dont answer,the readers will see who is right now."
      oh will they? let's see, one side cited 3 quranic verses, and 4 sources, the other ignored them, one side cited challenges and questions, the other ignored it, one side cited sources after sources that keeps blow up in their faces, the other refute them


      Your own sources again blow up in your face:
      "(4) Some commentators have proved the prohibition of Mut ah (temporary marriage) from this verse. They argue that the "woman with whom one has entered into wedlock temporarily, can neither be regarded as a Wife nor a slave-girl. A slave-girl obviously she is not, and she is also not a wife, because the legal injunctions normally applicable to the wife are not applicable to her. She neither inherits the man nor the man her; she is neither governed by the law pertaining to `Iddah (waiting period after divorce or death of husband), divorce, subsistence, nor by that pertaining to the vow by man that he will not have conjugal relations with her, false accusation, etc. She is also excluded from the prescribed limit of four wives. Thus, when she is neither a "wife" nor a "slave-girl" in any sense, she will naturally be included among those "beyond this", whose seeker has been declared a "transgressor" by the Qur'an.

      This is a strong argument but due to a weakness in it,-it is difficult to say that this verse is decisive with regard to the prohibition of Mut`ah. The fact is that the Holy Prophet enjoined the final and absolute prohibition of Mut ah in the year of the conquest of Makkah, but before it Mut ah was allowed according to several authentic traditions. "

      this tafsir brings this issue of mut'a rather than traditional marriage, mut'a is also considered marriage but temporary

      your cognitive bias is astonishing


      Now answer:
      1-do we have ijma' general consensus of scholars that you can have sex without marrige? and if so where is your evidence?
      2-is it linked to Mut'a (like the tafsir you cited)?
      3-do we have narrations from the scholars to confirm this postion?

      Delete
    21. WOW, you are actually taking your sources from these people?https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/7l29po/no_sex_with_slaves_without_marriage_really_why/

      how original

      Delete
    22. expected. my dude is desperate and petty.

      Delete
    23. @ mr. turco-apostate yeah i think 'the readers' know who's right here

      Delete
    24. '[ . . . ] but he somehow found a way out and said i was wrong and my quotes dont prove me, Im fucking sure im right but why the hell cant i prove that? Are not my quotes clear?? I have seen many attempts of muslims to justify sex slavery but This is First time i have heard sb rejected this, however somehow i cant bring %100 clear cut sources and prove my point. Or really, Is he right? Have i been always wrong about this?? Wtf?

      'It's fucking annoying really. Maybe its stupid to post this but i feel really weird and stupid now'
      poor guy

      Delete
    25. What makes it even more astonishing is that Maududio interpertation have been called to question

      "Mawdudi comments: Many misunderstandings seem to persist about the right to have sexual relations with one's slave-girls. It is pertinent to call attention to the following regulations of Islam: **(1) Islam does not permit soldiers of the Islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war**"
      source:
      Tafsir Ishraq Al-Ma'ani page.222

      so now we conclude, Maududi tafsir was referring to the Mut'a marriage and not the traditional marriage, on the other hand his is not regarded in high esteem among classical and modern arabic scholars in terms of his tafsir at least

      so not only we have a misunderstood citation, we have a questionable commentary aswell

      Delete
    26. " Mawdudi comments: Many misunderstandings seem to persist about the right to have sexual relations with one's slave-girls. It is pertinent to call attention to the following regulations of Islam: (1) Islam does not permit soldiers of the Islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war. Islamic Law requires that such women should first be handed over to the government which then has the right to decide what should be done with them."
      source:
      Tafsir Ishraq Al-Ma'ani page.222

      Delete
    27. Unfortunately i dont have islamic sources books and stuff,online is limited and i dont understand arabic so i cannot give references like you,only what i found on the internet

      http://pasted.co/8ea42df9

      Delete
    28. https://pastebin.com/aAtcvNDa

      "Unfortunately i dont have islamic sources books and stuff,online is limited and i dont understand arabic so i cannot give references like you,only what i found on the internet"
      do you see now why muslims say "you need to understand arabic"? learning and understanding arabic is a must if you want to defend or criticize islam, if you don't know arabic and you are facing a muslim apologist like me who is a native arabic speaker then you are at a significant disadvantage, but don't take that personally, if you were following a religion with foreign language and i was criticizing it i will be in a significant disadvantage if i don't understand it's language

      Delete
    29. U said there are other muslims and scholars agreeing with u on this,who are they? Names? I'll take a look

      Delete
    30. I gave you their names, the grand ibn taymiya, ib jazi al kalbi, Imam Qurtubi, Maha Muhammad Ali altinawi, the grand Imam Al-Nawawi as he said:
      "لمْ أنّ مذهب الشافعي وَمَن قال بقوله من العلماء أنّ المسبيّة من عبدة الأوثان وغيرهم من الكفار الذين لا كتاب لهم لا يحل وطؤها بملك اليمين حتى تسلم "
      Translation:
      and according to shafi'i and the overwhelming majority of Ulama (scholars) that the slave girl especially those who are polytheist should not be engaged with in sexual intercourse, unless she convert
      source:
      imam nawawi sharih of sahih muslim of awtas hadith
      imam ibn qudama
      Imam ala al deen mardudi
      imam ibn qudama al maqdisi
      shiekh muhammad sa'id raslan in his book sharih kitab al nikah
      imam Abdul rahim bin husaid al iraqi
      imam muhammad bin abdul baqi al-zurqani
      imam Shihab aldean alqarafi

      and so much more

      most of these names are new and i didn't add to the article

      but of course there are exceptions, two or three scholars as i observed agree with your claim, but as i explained, the overwhelming majority of scholars make observations closer to me or even beyond what i said, like Imam Mawdodi that you quoted, and qarafi who takes what i say step beyond

      Delete
    31. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    32. Hello.
      I just read your conversation and at one point you said " islamic law does not not permit soldiers of the islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war. Islamic Law requires that such women should first be handed over to the government, which then has the right to decide what should be done with them. It may either set them free unconditionally, release them on payment of ransom, exchange them for Muslim prisoners of war held by the enemy or distribute them among the soldiers. A soldier may have sexual relations only with that woman who has been entrusted to him by the government. (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations only with that woman who have been entrusted to him by the goverment" . But if we read the source we see that " (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations with her until at lest one menstrual period has expired ;  this in order to establish that she is not pregnant. If the women is pregnant one may not have sexual relationship with her until after the birth of her child" This is different because he didn't denies the right to have sex with her nor he give two opposing views, he simply explain the details of islamic law. So you cant immediately have sex with the girl you capture, you have to wait that the government  (not a military comander in the field (10))  give her to you, then you have to wait her monthly courses or child. Only then you can have sex, those sexual relationships with her are halal (point (8))
      Towards Understanding of Quran vol.2 page.26

      Delete
    33. "I just read your conversation and at one point you said " islamic law does not not permit soldiers of the islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war. "
      i have never said that, it's permissible of course in islamic law for soldiers of islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war, but they can only do that if they marry them first according to the overwhelming majority of scholars, and as byproduct they are set free

      Delete
    34. I perhaps misspoke: what i wanted to say is that you cutted the citation of the tasfir, leaving the impression that it was two differents opinions when it was one opinion explained in differents points. You cutted abruptly during the point (2) leaving the word "until" and the rest of the point off your citation.

      Delete
    35. " perhaps misspoke: what i wanted to say is that you cutted the citation of the tasfir"
      accusations of misquotations require evidence, please provide it

      Delete
    36. You wrote "...entrusted to him by the government. (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations only with that woman who have been entrusted to him by the goverment"
      And i read in the book " (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations with her until at lest one menstrual period has expired ; this in order to establish that she is not pregnant. If the women is pregnant one may not have sexual relationship with her until after the birth of her child"
      As you can see and as i wrote in the first comment, "UNTIL at lest one menstrual period has expired ; this in order to establish that she is not pregnant. If the women is pregnant one may not have sexual relationship with her until after the birth of her child" was absent from your citation.

      Delete
    37. "You wrote "...entrusted to him by the government. (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations only with that woman who have been entrusted to him by the goverment"
      "
      no where did i said that, that is one of the anonymous commentators, he was the first to make that statement, please scroll up and read before accusing me of something i never said, i think you confused me with someone else

      Delete
    38. You litterally said it here : https://pastebin.com/aAtcvNDa

      Delete
    39. read it carefully that was a quote from the individual i was responding to, that portion is his own source where i used it against him
      hence under it i said "so now even your own source refute the idea that you can have sex with limitless slaves"
      that was not my source but the source of the individual I'm responding to and i used it against them

      please read carefully
      i never used mawdodi there as my source but rather it was the source of my opponent

      Delete
    40. Can you show me where he used this exact quotation ?

      Delete
    41. Read prior to that link of that pastebin of mine you copied, the comments before i posted that link originally, that quote is part of a statement by that commentator who was copying what Reddit exmuslims telling him to type in response to me
      you can just use ctrl+f on windows and copy that text and see where it was originally written

      Delete
    42. I typed "Even then, he may not have sexual relations", i got 5 hits on this pages all mines and none on the reddit thread neither on the guy pasted.co

      Delete
    43. because you didn't finish the sentence "...entrusted to him by the government. (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations only with that woman who have been entrusted to him by the goverment"
      either one of the accusations, the new accusation that you just came out with no i never cited it

      originally it came from an anonymous commentator texted
      "And see after ayah 4:24 here: http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=23&to=25

      ""A soldier may have sexual relations only with that woman who has been entrusted to him by the government. "
      so what i did is look specifically for that quote in mawdodi and showed his sources, basically he is the first to cite him not me

      the source originally comes from him not me, what i did is find it and complement on it

      are you talking about the menstrual cycle in the rest of the ruling number 2 that mawdodi cite and you think suppose to undermine my position that you can't have sex with them unless you marry them first? or are you talking about something else, you are not wording yourself well

      Delete
    44. I said that with the complete sentence the meaning is different because he didn't denies the right to have sex with her nor he give two opposing views, he simply explain the details of islamic law. So you cant immediately have sex with the girl you capture, you have to wait that the government (not a military comander in the field (10)) give her to you, then you have to wait her monthly courses or child. Only then you can have sex, those sexual relationships with her are halal (point (8)). When in your pastebin you said "the only thing we can make out of this is the following:
      Mawdodi says according to islamic law you may never have sex with female slaves, but he cites contradticing claim in later verse"

      Delete
    45. "I said that with the complete sentence the meaning is different because he didn't denies the right to have sex with her nor he give two opposing views"
      i never said Mawdodi denies sex at all, infact i said he took it a step beyond me and stated a military commander can't use slaves as sex objects right on ruling 10 page.28, your allegation doesn't contradict my statement regarding marriage being a must condition for sex, while i do hold the position that a military commander can use slaves for sex, but of course consent and marriage are required, mawdodi state that he can't do that at all especially when using slaves as sex objects (without marriage), in my view as i saw and studied, military commander is permitted to allow his men to have sex with slaves, but as i stated so long as it's not rape, marrige contract is required and since her consent is required for marriage, by result makes her consent required for sex, and if she disagree you are not allowed to have sex with her at all
      mawdodi goes beyond this and says a military commander can't allow his soldiers to use them for sex at all

      "he simply explain the details of islamic law. So you cant immediately have sex with the girl you capture, you have to wait that the government (not a military comander in the field (10)) give her to you, then you have to wait her monthly courses or child. Only then you can have sex, those sexual relationships with her are halal (point (8)). When in your pastebin you said "the only thing we can make out of this is the following:
      Mawdodi says according to islamic law you may never have sex with female slaves, but he cites contradticing claim in later verse""
      no Mawdodi is not denying sex with slaves at all, he only give it certain limitations, a military commander can't use slaves as sex objects (and he said that literally on page 28) government can hand over the slave to you but you must marry her first for sexual intercourse, mawdodi doesn't contradict himself at all, all what he says is that you can have sex with slaves, but never specified the conditions precisely

      Delete
    46. You wrote "captives are a position and not occupation" can you give me some other examples of position ? Is a woman who own a slave in a position of mistress ? Is a orphan woman in a position of orphaned ?

      Delete
    47. Your pastebin : "Mawdodi says according to islamic law you MAY NEVER have sex with female slaves, but he cites contradticing claim in later verse, these are only the interpretation of a scholar he never named that goes AGAINST the above source"
      Your new position: "no Mawdodi is NOT DENYING sex with slaves at all, he only give it certain limitations"
      Emphasis mine, Make up your mind.

      The remaining of your reply was already dealt with by others.

      Delete
    48. "Make up your mind."
      you have a very poor reading comprehension, Read above "he only give it certain limitations"
      meaning based on those limitations he Denies sex with slaves, he never denied it at all times and at all conditions and places, he denies it when a military commander allow his soldiers to do it

      here is his full quote from Mawdodi
      "islamic law does not not permit soldiers of the islamic army to have sexual relations with women they capture in war. Islamic Law requires that such women should first be handed over to the government, which then has the right to decide what should be done with them. It may either set them free unconditionally, release them on payment of ransom, exchange them for Muslim prisoners of war held by the enemy or distribute them among the soldiers. A soldier may have sexual relations only with that woman who has been entrusted to him by the government. (2) Even then, he may not have sexual relations only with that woman who have been entrusted to him by the government"

      meaning after she was handed and dealt with by the government, only then the government might give a permit for the soldier to have sexual relations with those who have been entrusted to him by the government, based on specific stipulations.
      the individual i was responding to cited mawdodi which i used to fire back on him, and he claimed islam allow limitless sex with slaves with no condition which is why i used his own source again

      "The remaining of your reply was already dealt with by others."
      who, and how?

      Delete
    49. I read his tasfir, you are not understanding, Why in your pastebin you said what I quoted when you have another opinion in your next quote ? I understand your new position, which is closer to reality, but not the full negation in hour pastebin. "You may never.."

      Delete
    50. "2-is it linked to Mut'a (like the tafsir you cited)?"
      Why are you strawmanning and quotemining this tafsir so much ? It doesn't talk only about muta, that why it's the last interpretation (4), and it mention explicitly that's only the interpretation of "some comentators" when the general meaning given in (1) does not have such restrictions "the basis being possession and not marriage.* If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives"
      No words at all about temporary marriage in this explanation, only about the normal marriage that is opposed to sex by possession.

      Delete
    51. where have i strawmanned and misquoted my source?

      Delete
    52. I said it in my last comment, read it again. You only focused on a minor point to try to dismiss the other majors points.

      Delete
  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huB29gXkf0Q

    Fun Fact:This is idubbbz's girlfriend

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. she left Islam because limitations such as she couldn't eat marshmallows? is she actually for real? even if i were an atheist, i would facepalm at that

      Delete
    2. "rather than rational logic,research or thought."
      you are mentioning things that new atheist ex-muslim have no clue what it's and what it's all about, all they care about is posting on twitter how they are being persecuted and how glorious the west it.
      BTW I'm working on my channel, the first video will be about the allowance of killing innocent civilians.

      Delete
    3. @Good luck on your first video...

      Delete
  4. I read the article amd I have to say it is awesome . This articate provides much authenticity than Tma's garbage . Jazakallahu Khairan for this refutation .

    ReplyDelete
  5. The more and more I hear the pedophilia accusations the more I become convinced that anti Islamic's have no knowledge about History and science. Unsurprisingly TMA also falls in this category.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "Alqawanin al-fiqhya by the classical imam ibn jazi al kalbi page.130"
    Could you give a hyperlink to this book, all editions I found only mention mosque etiquette in the specified page ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i don't remember at that time, this post was long time ago as i don't remember the source and how i got it, but i guess the closest i can find now is this
      http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-6193#page-126

      Delete
    2. I asked a native Arabic speaker, he said that your source indeed speak about marriage but nowhere does it say or imply what you quoted. He said that your text has missing punctuation and gave me https://archive.org/stream/FP4331/4331#page/n129/mode/2up as a better version with the punctuation more visible.

      Delete
    3. your link is broken try separating it from your text, as for punctuation it's easily explained as english is not my first language, understanding where to put punctuation is not something a native arabic speaker like my self will understand

      Delete
    4. https://archive.org/stream/FP4331/4331#page/n129/mode/2up

      It works on my side, he is also a native speaker and was talking about the Arabic text.

      Delete

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